EP 4: From Rucksack to Recruiter:Leveraging Military Skills in the Civilian Job Market

EP 4: From Rucksack to Recruiter: Leveraging Military Skills in the Civilian Job Market,  featuring: Jose Jimenez, Jr., Mary Despe, Marisol Maloney, and Tracy Forsha.

Episode 4 dives into the multifaceted journey that veterans and retired paramilitary embark upon as they shift from military  or law enforcement to civilian life. Colonel Jose Jimenez, Jr. an esteemed ARMY commander, begins our session with a candid exploration of his career transition. Col Jimenez (now fully separated, since show was recorded) provides unparalleled guidance for those confronting the intricate 'soup' of change after decades in service.

Mary Despe, an expert career coach with a strategic position in Hawaii's robust military landscape, offers a deep dive into the art of tailoring applications and resumes. Her seasoned advice on harnessing the synergy of coaching during this critical time is invaluable.

We then pivot to Marisol Maloney, a US Navy veteran and zealous DOD recruiter. Despite her relatively fresh entry into the workforce, her insights on salary negotiations from a recruiter's perspective are nothing short of gold. She speaks to what’s negotiable, what’s not, and why "retirement" may be a topic to approach with caution.

Rounding out our panel is Tracy Forsha, who brings a wealth of experience from her time as a law enforcement officer and her current role as an executive coach for military and paramilitary personnel. Tracy imparts wisdom on leveraging one's HR background and personality—whether introverted or extroverted—to ace the job application process.

This episode isn't just a discussion; it's a treasure trove of strategies, personal stories, and expert advice for anyone in the military community facing the career transition t

If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour, let us know. Go to www.xchangepodcast.com and click connect. A producer will read your request and get back to you. Thanks for your support!

Learn more about host, Cheryl Cross and her book, "CIVILIAN MISSION: The 3-Year Guide for Military Professionals Planning Civilian Careers" available for order online.

Transcript

Introduction - Justin Cruz: 0:00

Thanks for listening to the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour One hour of tips from experts and real stories from people just like you. For those thinking about what lies ahead, for those going through the job search and those who have paved the way to their next career after the military. These professionals are dedicated to helping you move forward successfully to the next phase of your career after the military. Welcome to Exchange.

Cheryl Cross : 0:39

Hello and welcome back Today. I am honored to speak to somebody who is truly going through the soup I have, jose Jimenez. Jose, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for telling us your story. How are you today?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 0:51

Thanks for having me. I'm doing great, Cheryl, thanks for having me.

Cheryl Cross : 0:55

You and I have talked and we are part of an organization that does help people transition from military to civilian careers, and I applaud you for what you're doing ahead of your transition. But since you are actively in your transition, why don't you share a bit of your story and where you're at?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 1:11

Well, a little bit of my transition story I will tell you.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 1:15

Begin about a year and a half ago, when you get this spidey senses telling you that maybe it's time to start considering a new career.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 1:24

And when that occured, I very quickly begin to reach out to those who have been through this process, both peers and mentors, as well as those who are there to support us, just to kind of understand what that roadmap looks like, what the timeline looks like, and over the 14 months or so, I've learned very quickly that it takes more than 14 months. Well, from a standpoint administratively as you can imagine, the government gives you a lot of paperwork and also from a simple mentally you have to mentally prepare for the things that are coming. And then, professionally, from a simple okay, well, what, how do I define myself in a suit and tie? And then never forgetting that when you lead a family right, you also have to account for the same elements at a very at the home level. So, needless to say, there's a lot to be learned still. I think I've made some progress, but you know you can never stop learning anyway, period. So, looking forward to the next few months I have left to really cross the finish line and see what's on the other side.

Cheryl Cross : 2:29

You also have perspectives from the folks that you're leading and who are going through this, this process. Please tell us a little bit about what you've learned about those folks who have left, not only your battalion or your command, but some of the takeaways that you have from those folks.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 2:46

Well, what I've learned, first and foremost and we like to say this often and I'll repeat it is we have very resilient and flexible men and women in uniform and their families, meaning you just have to give them the guidance, you have to point them in the right direction and they'll find a path that's best for them.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 3:04

So what that gets after is the bigger corporate discussion. What are those things that we can do as leaders military and civilian to prepare our members and their families and to give them the right options and the right lenses to see the opportunities out there? There also comes with a sort of a tax that we now, if I am willing to let my members prepare themselves for transition, I also have to allow them the time to transition. Mission first, people always, and sometimes you can flip those two. So I think, as a leader, it's a balance of those two things finding out where you can let these folks truly step aside to do that preparation, and then one of those times when you have to keep them a little longer because the mission requires it and that's not an easy answer sometimes, and then you put families in the equation.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 3:55

it becomes a little bit more complex.

Cheryl Cross : 3:58

You have quite a few people in your command. Can you tell us the number?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 4:01

Well, currently I have 115 people, and that is my staff in command. I can have up to 300 students as well, so that brings the number a little bit higher in terms of the mission, but when we speak about those folks that are military and so forth, there will be 150 and there's a good number.

Cheryl Cross : 4:19

That's a lot of people to give one on one attention to. Are you, aside from being a commander? You're a resource person. We all are as managers, right and mentors, and sponsors and advocates for our folks who we lead, because it truly reflects back on us. What do you think you've learned, that you've applied, that you're going to be applying in the future as you go through actually, you're going through it now as you go through the soup of the job search.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 4:46

Well, I think we need to immerse ourselves in our troops, into the resources. There's so many of them. So the education piece as to what's out there is important, but following immediately after that is okay. Let's dive in and let's start Anything as simple as there's small seminars that teach you how to run a resume to the bigger conferences and events that allow you really to now speak to experts in the fields that you're interested in. So there's a big gamut of things that you can do. What I think is more important is to just immerse yourself, dive into the deep end and you know again, like I said earlier, our people are very resilient and flexible, agile, so you just got to give them the resources and they'll figure it out themselves.

Cheryl Cross : 5:37

Let's talk about you. The segment is really about you and your experience being in this process as you look for a job. What's some of the challenges that you're facing?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 5:50

Well, I kind of alluded to this time when you're in a position that I'm in and, quite frankly, that happens through the lowest ranks as well. Time is very limited and to do this right, in my opinion, you have to spend the right quality of time, which takes you now into some of the free time that you otherwise will have. Now it's not, but that's part one. The other thing is understanding who you are out of the uniform, and some career fields make that a little bit easier. So if you're cyber and you want to do cyber in the civilian sector, you know, the transition is not easy, but it's a little bit more transparent when you are someone like myself and my peers.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 6:32

We are commanders we are generalists, and we walked away from the technical aspects of our mission maybe 10 years ago, so now it's a matter of okay one. What have you done? How does that translate into the civilian sector? And this is very important how do we humbly represent ourselves out there without the rank or the position, or really the prestige, if you want to call it that, that you carry with your rank when you walk into a room? You have to divorce yourself from those things. And again, that talks to the mental transition that there's a lot of books on how to find jobs, how to write resumes, how to interview. There's not a lot of that there. I think that speaks to you as to how to mentally prepare for that, because it can be somewhat difficult for some folks.

Cheryl Cross : 7:18

You have done a lot of studying on this and I spoke to you at our last event about this. I'd love to hear what you're doing to mentally prepare. Is it wake up six o'clock in the morning, meditate? Is it eating extra eggs? What are you doing?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 7:33

Well, I think, first and foremost is to keep in a healthy balance between work, life and transitioning, because now you have three things going on on top of everything else. You need to schedule yourself and discipline yourself to not lose sight of the other things that are important to you. The same things fitness, nutrition, like you said. I think what's helping personally is being in a very positive state of mind, excitement. I will tell you, in the time I've been in the armed forces, I have never disliked the job, and maybe people will think I'm truly lying Now I will tell you some jobs work better than others, but I've always taken the attitude that every opportunity and job that I have is an opportunity to learn something new, to get excited about it.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 8:20

So I've taken the same mentality to this process to transition, and I'm sure it'll be different once I cross that finish line. But right now I'm thinking of it as well instead of putting on a uniform in a new job tomorrow, I just put a different uniform in a different job tomorrow, and I've done that 15 times in my career. So, yeah, I'm going to have to learn a new language. I'm going to have to learn how to dress differently and say things a little differently. But really I smile because it's not a deployment. I'm not away from family, I'm not packing bags. It's just a more simpler process in my opinion.

Cheryl Cross : 9:00

Is it really? Okay? I like that perspective. Now you talk about family. I'm assuming that you said 15. 15 duty stations, 15 different locations, 15 different jobs. Explain what 15 was.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 9:13

Yes, just 15 different assignments in the world in 25 years and quite frankly that's not a lot of PCSs as folks would do more out there. But again, that speaks to not only the resiliency of the service member to do all of these things on the go but also the family.

Cheryl Cross : 9:30

Right.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 9:32

So very excited to see my family come through this process as well.

Cheryl Cross : 9:36

You are an advocate for this process and I imagine that as you continue this, you will continue to mentor and support and sponsor folks. How might people reach out to you? Would that be LinkedI n? Could they find you? Would they be able to communicate with you? Could you direct them to any type of resource?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 9:56

Well, they can reach to me on LinkedIn it kind of helps them get into the habit of networking on LinkedIn. I will say that because it just gets us out of a military mindset of that mail, email, right, and I think it forces us to in a very simple manner. It forces those folks out there to okay, you got to get into LinkedIn, you have to. It's one of those platforms and tools that you just have to. So if you want to reach them, I will say that'll be the best way so I can share and also learn from others.

Cheryl Cross : 10:49

It'll be exciting to see, and I know this podcast will be going on for some time. I told you at the beginning that this was evergreen, so hopefully the information you're sharing is relevant. We're going to continue talking about you as a person and some of the I don't want to say frustrations, but some of the things you've learned that would resonate with our audience. Why don't you go ahead and tell us a couple of things that we highlighted before the show?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 11:15

Okay. So the first thing I will point out as an area for improvement let me call it that is we, as a corporate entity, we have very good ideas or very good intentions. We believe, we know this that we need to help our members and our families transition properly. We know that it's at the core of what we believe. I think what happens a lot of times how that gets defined into actual reality varies widely, and as it varies, it also fails sometimes to hit the mark that we're trying to get after. The reason for that is multitude of reasons, but I will highlight the fact that we are a very large institution the Department of Defense in my case and it's very hard to create a single formula from the top that applies to everyone a soldier, a Marine, etc. They're all different, and then you've got different jobs, different locations, etc, etc. Different backgrounds. So I think what we will learn very quickly as people go through this transition is you really have to be cognizant that the solution is being presented in front of you and they just be a stepping stone to what you truly need to learn. So and follow into the question. The second thing I know is we focus a lot in making sure our members understand the two basics rest and rest right and also interviewing, but we don't spend enough time, I believe, in exposing them to more resources and also talking a little bit about the mental transition. To me that's the toughest because we spend a lot of time I've seen it and of course, I've experienced this to. My learning is I will read a lot about how to write a resume, how to remove language that is not civilian language, yet my first five versions of that resume sounded just like that. Right and again, that's the mental fitness that we need to get into force ourselves, into really doing more.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 13:18

And the third thing I will call it as an opportunity for improvement is we cannot fall behind on how do we transition our families Because, quite frankly, many times we transition because we're ready for the family to settle right, because we have kids in school or whatever situations like that. But I think we do talk about our families, but I don't think we're putting enough effort and so quote unquote academics to talk about that and to address that. Now, great programs are there to help us houses, but there's not the depth that we have for military members, that we should have with families. So those are the basic three things that I mean, and there's tons more things, little things that we can do better. Those are the three major ones I noticed as a transition.

Cheryl Cross : 14:08

I agree with you, Jose. I've seen, in my time serving military, folks coming into corporate America. They're very curious what's next? What do I do? What are the steps that I take? And that's a blessing and a curse, because you've been trained so well. You've been trained to not only ask what's appropriate but to also follow directions. In the working world, in the corporate world, it's a little bit more fungible, flexible and organic. How might you let's say you're telling somebody who's going to be going through this process, how might you give advice to someone who is looking to leave a very predictive, structured career environment and going into the unknown, the organic, flexible world of corporate America?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 14:58

Well, here's the first thing, and we'll tell them. I will tell them to start with the very basics, right, the resume and the interviewing kind of gives you the first shot of oh well, this is different. I never had to interview for a job Well, very few of us had to and I never had to write a resume, and so that's the first shot. I think the second step in that is I will advise folks to go and immerse yourself in the corporate world as much as you can, and they can be as simple as you go on on something like LinkedIn and if you're interested in a particular company, reach out to that company, somebody, a senior vice president or CEO. Here's the good news and this is what I've learned personally is being a veteran gets you a pretty good foot through the door.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 15:41

It doesn't give you everything, but I've learned a nine out of 10 times when I reached to a vice president or president of a company via LinkedIn and it's simply mentioned look, I'm a military veteran of transition, I would like to connect or learn from you, nine out of 10 will connect with you and then, following that, if you ask him, hey, I would like to take five minutes of your time to just hear your thoughts and how veterans make your company better, those simple steps and, by the way, nine out of those 10 folks also say yes, and the those that don't say anything tell you who to go talk to.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 16:15

So you batting very well averages here, and those conversations start opening the aperture and making you realize okay, this is what it means to be unnecessary. The other thing I will advise folks to do is to take full advantage of the skill bridge programs or any other programs like it. Also, because you will not truly understand and this is true in the military you will not truly understand that environment or that job or that culture only should be immersed in it, and that is something that we teach our language. To learn a new language, you have to immerse yourself in a language. This is no different. So that will be. My other piece of advice is do not undermine the importance of skill bridge, and of course, there's something I haven't done yet, but I'm moving in that direction, because there's no different than bringing a new member to my team and immersing him in my mission. Well, we have to do that when we go to the civilian sector.

Cheryl Cross : 17:10

Good advice.

Cheryl Cross : 17:11

You know, one of the things that I see a lot as a former corporate recruiter is people applying very early and getting a ton of rejection.

Cheryl Cross : 17:21

So I just want to remind everybody that if you are in that year of designing your transition into civilian work, if you are looking to potentially move from not into a geo-review BS role but even to serve the military in a contracting role, it is good to network ahead of your availability. But that sweet spot is really in that three months before your availability and that differs between company and then rank so the enlisted folks start their terminal leave and can be employed pretty quickly where officers depending on the company and the ethics and the policy of that company because they're taking government money, they may not be able to hire them immediately. They may have to be fully separated from the return, you know, not double dipping in a sense. So I see a lot of folks who are just frustrated. They've had a ton of rejection and I don't want to say you're doing it wrong, but there's a lot of timing involved. Now you are part of an organization that helps teach, as a volunteer, people when to start applying. What if you learned? What advice would you give?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 18:29

Well, I want to speak real quickly of what you just said. Right, the quote, unquote, rejections. I will tell folks, don't, don't take that as a rejection, just take it as okay. We got to move on and we got to try different. So, because I hear that a lot and there's a lot of disappointment in folks that we help that portray that to us when we tell them it's not just you, as everyone else, that's how this works.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 18:54

I think what I will advise folks to do is to learn the idiosyncrasies of how corporate, the corporate world recruits, brings in talent, trains that talent and in some cases, may keeps it or not. There's a very harsh reality that we need to understand because, you know, up to this point nobody's ever fired us, and I mean there's a few, of course, but you know, for the vast majority of us we never have to worry about those things. So when we first encounter those things, what I like to tell our members is you know, do not think it's not a bad thing, it's just this. You know, it's like going to Antarctica it's just going to be cold. It doesn't mean as bad, it's just cold. Right Again, it's back to the mental transition. It's a mental muscle memory that we need to ship a little bit. And to your point, yeah, absolutely. I think understanding the sweet spot for applications is very important. That also comes the side that we tell them is okay. Well, it doesn't mean that you start making a relationship with that recruiter, that entity, three months out. It means that you develop and enrich that relationship so they understand you and then, three months before that position is available, you can take the position. Hopefully you apply.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 20:15

I think the other thing that we like to highlight with our organization to our veterans and our families is look, you still need to continue to build relationships in a civilian world. Yes, you know the camaraderie, the spirit core is different. It's different, but there's still an element to it that you need to connect from human to human with that other person who's going to talk to you, read your resume or whatever, make a recommendation right. It's still very important. We cannot lose sight of that. And again, I always go back to the mental preparation. You know, like you said, our members are very well organized. If you give them a checklist, they'll accomplish that. I'm fully aware that every single one of my members will manage to go through a personal standard or an op process out of the military. They can do that. I'm not worried about that. I'm more concerned or more focused on okay, how do I mentally help you get ready for those realities that you and I have never seen in our careers?

Cheryl Cross : 21:14

Well, you certainly are a servant leader and I'm curious how many years have you served in the armed forces?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 21:20

So I'm currently at 25. By the time I'm officially retired, I'll be a month short of 26.

Cheryl Cross : 21:29

Congratulations and thank you so much for your support.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 21:31

Thank you for your support.

Cheryl Cross : 21:32

I know you and I are going to continue working in a volunteer way as ambassadors and I'm so thrilled that you are here to talk about your current situation going through the soup. Is there any last parting thoughts you'd like to leave our audience as they go through their transition or prepare for their transition before we end our segment?

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 21:53

I will say you're going to have your ups and downs. You're going to have to do rest and mess, which is, to me, wasn't a lot of fun. You're going to have this rejection, so you're going to have to learn LinkedIn. But get excited, you know, because you have something. You have that code veteran next to your name and that is a very powerful thing to have next to you because you've earned it. It won't give you everything, but it's a force multiplier. And along with that, I will say make sure that if you have close ones or a family, excite them too, because they now will begin to enjoy things that maybe they didn't have a chance to because of all the deployments and all the moves. Now it's kind of a new chapter in an amazing bulk of accomplishments. So I will say be excited, be prepared, be ready, but don't look at this challenge, Look at this opportunities.

Cheryl Cross : 22:44

Agreed. You are trained, you are skilled, you are strong and you are brave. I agree with you 100%, Jose. What an honor. Thank you so much for giving your advice and sharing your story. I know we'll have you back on the show for other segments, but for today we're just going to say goodbye and, for our listeners, we'll be back right after this.

Jose Jimenez, Jr.: 23:03

Thank you so much and thanks for having me.

Cheryl Cross : 23:10

Hi, welcome back. I'm your host, cheryl Cross. I have brought Mary Despe to the show. She's joining us to talk about application, meaning when you start applying for jobs, what's on the other side of that fence, so to speak, what's going on on the corporate side. So welcome to the show, and I'm eager to hear what you have to say about applications.

Mary Despe: 23:36

Thanks so much for having me.

Mary Despe: 23:38

It's really interesting that there's such a focus now that resumes are really tailored to the specific job descriptions that are advertised out there.

Mary Despe: 23:52

I was saying that I remember a time where you could just create a resume. It was kind of a historical record, if you will, of what you knew and what you studied and what you did, and then you'd put it out there in the universe and hopefully someone would come back to you with a job or something similar to that. It's very much not like that anymore, and we were just talking before we went live about this that it's very tailored to the position, the language that's posted on the internet and what your resume, how it stacks up against that language, because in a lot of the early stages of candidate selection and screening, a lot of it's done by AI tools or they're automated, where there are programming devices and what have you ranking what you're putting forth in your resume against the job description and putting that against the pool of people who have applied. So it's an interesting time because it wasn't always like that, but now there's more and more of an emphasis on that.

Cheryl Cross : 25:58

You bring up a point about algorithms and a lot of companies, in order to save time, are using algorithms for AI, artificial intelligence. Now I brought this up on another show. I remember when the voice sorry, not the voice, but yes the voice and the facial recognition tools were used for sales positions and how delineating that was to our diversity, equity, inclusion. Folks who raised their hand in corporate culture and said, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hold on, if you're modeling from somebody, what are you looking for? Maybe some culture, races, genders don't have those characteristics. And somebody said to me once well, I'm just looking for an energy. It's like well, you can hear an energy on the phone. You can do that with a human being. So I don't think all AI is bad. Don't get me wrong. Chatgpt has changed the world and it certainly has helped a lot of folks create resumes that are very specific to those job descriptions.

Cheryl Cross : 27:01

I'm going to take a pause and remind our military friends that if you are active duty and you're continuing your service maybe the mission into a government contracting role anyone who's taking money from the government to staff you for a position is up against OFCCP guidelines and those guidelines are very strict. So if a requisition is posted, you need to meet, I'd say, the majority of what is needed and most companies that I've seen have them in the must haves and nice to haves. So those must haves are pretty much 90 to 100%. They don't have a lot of flex room because they will be audited against that and I know it's frustrating, but if you have four years of experience and the requisition is asking for six, you probably won't be looked at and as a job seeker you're like well, I can do that job. Well, you might not have the amount of experience at the client or the contract or the mission is looking for.

Cheryl Cross : 28:00

So thanks for letting me talk a little bit about military stuff. How do you coach people? You're a career advisor and you work with people one-on-one. How do you coach them to apply and are you a cheerleader through the process? Because it's so frustrating. It is so frustrating, and then we'll talk about timelines for military too. So tell me about how you work with people one-on-one.

Mary Despe: 28:25

Yeah, gosh, such a good thing. I mean with respect to the application process and, well, just the job search in general. It's kind of brutal out there, I'm not going to lie, and it's really a case where there's less human interaction, live personal interaction, at some point making decisions about how far we move forward. I mean, I don't say that to be sinister, I say that because it's reality. But we're not going to be a society just yet of not interacting with people.

Mary Despe: 29:04

When I coach, it's really about a strategy. So it's multifaceted. It's not just applying to many job boards or many things online. It's a lot of the other things that really make the difference, especially when you get on with your career. It's the networking, it's the follow-up, it's the. You know, let me get a little creative to see how I can stand out and get time with people that might have some sort of influence with this or insight. You know it's really coming up with a plan that hits job and professional development from a few different angles. So it's more than just applying online, even though that is very important to know where to go and target and look for things that are suitable for you.

Cheryl Cross : 29:57

I think a lot of people, when they're applying, they do two things. In the military, you have an availability timeline. Many of you, I hope, are getting ahead of this at least one year out. But when you start applying to jobs, there's that availability timeline. So keep in mind folks when you're applying to jobs. Those jobs are open right now. Right now and most likely a recruiter needs to fill them within the 30, 60, 90-day threshold. If you're not leaving the military for another 12 months, I don't recommend you apply. I recommend you start networking and maybe not with just the recruiter, because recruiters again, you're trying to fill those jobs right.

Cheryl Cross : 30:41

As a corporate recruiter, I was reached out to 100 different ways. People would come into my office and hand a resume which is very cool and very old-school, but I wasn't always able to spend time with them because I didn't prepare for it. My focus was truly on those jobs that I needed to fill and we call them requisitions. So don't think the recruiter is terrible if they don't get back to you on LinkedIn. They're probably getting about 100 of you a week. That's fine. If they do speak to you, please have them call me. I'd love to interview them.

Cheryl Cross : 31:14

The other thing is. There's a sweet spot and it depends on everyone's availability. If you're available in the next three months, yes, start hitting that apply button, especially if you know where you're going to be living, pcs-ing or going back to your home of record or wherever you or your family have decided to move. So those things are very important. We talk a lot about that in the prep and a lot of the folks who are going through the transition will talk about that, mary, you said something about. I'm going to switch over to the thing we all forget. We throw spaghetti to the wall, we apply to a lot of jobs and then we sit back and we wait.

Cheryl Cross : 31:55

And then we get those. I'm sorry you weren't selected. Thank you so much. What a pleasure it was for you to have you know for you not to be accepted. You get those really generated emails and that digs away at your ego. I'll be honest, I've gone through that too. So, hygiene the hygiene you talked about, the hygiene of networking and follow-up what does that look like really?

Mary Despe: 32:19

Honestly, Cheryl, this is where I feel like a lot of people. This is where we, you know, separate, like the, you know the people who just do enough from the people who really want it and you know sometimes people get mad when I say that, but I believe it's really true and the networking and the follow-up, I mean it's exactly as you said, that networking it's far more than a conversation with a recruiter. It's, you know, finding out information from people who are doing the kind of work you want to be doing. How have they done it? You know it's learning more about a company and you know what their business roadmap is for the next year or so or what they're planning. It's having these conversations and you can do it in many different ways. You can do it one-on-one, you can do it by attending events that a company is sponsoring and then, just, you know, mingling with people on staff. You can reach out to people on, say, linkedin. You know, and you know be earnest and sincere with your reach out and seeing if you know people would be willing to chat with you a bit more about your targeted. You know interest on something. It's a lot of different things, but I think that networking it's so important. It's something that should happen all the time, not just like a one-time transactional thing, which a lot of job seekers feel.

Mary Despe: 33:46

And right now I'm working with a lot of professionals who are going through a career transition due to layoff, and so you know it's like, oh, I need a job, I need a job, I need a job, I'm networking. But it's like, well, you're asking for a referral for a job and that's all you're doing. You know, what else are you doing to build your intelligence about the company you know, about how they're adding value to their customers, like, how are you getting this? And this is, you know, much more than just a one-time thing. Same thing with the follow-up. I mean, I think we've all been there. We've gotten that really horrible quick. Thank you for applying, but we're moving on with someone else or someone else who's selected.

Mary Despe: 34:28

It's interesting because you know you can take that as like, okay, cool, they're telling me it's over. But I've had a number of people say, you know, I don't really agree with that, and they go around and try to find people you know, like just from their own networking, like I am really good for this role, let me prove it to you. They kind of take it as fire to the belly just to kind of look and see if there are other creative ways to get to know more people there that can help bring visibility to their background. So I've actually had someone within the last two months who got one of those automated rejection letters. He's getting an offer because it was like a second pass. Yeah, but you know it was not easy. It was like three or four follow-ups afterwards.

Cheryl Cross : 35:18

So anyway, yeah, how he or she had they already been interviewed?

Mary Despe: 35:24

No, they had just gotten the rejection email, which is very popular now in this market that it's like boom, mass emails of decline applications. And this particular person was really. He was upset about it. He felt like the role was perfect for him and so he just took it upon himself that initiative, you know, to just seek out other ways to see how he could reinsert himself in the process, and he did.

Mary Despe: 35:53

I mean he followed up with, like reaching out on LinkedIn to a couple of people that he knew, that knew others that were hiring in that department, and said you know, I really think I deserve a second pass. This isn't an unusual story, but this is what I'm talking about, that it's like there are those who just do, you know, like enough, and then those who want it a little more. So, you know, it's okay to be a little creative and have a little more initiative, but without being fanatical, please don't drive them crazy.

Cheryl Cross : 36:28

It's a. It's a, really, it's a. It's a razor's edge there. So you talked about knowing a company.

Cheryl Cross : 36:36

There's more and more companies that are doing exposure programs for military and those who are coming from the military or who serve. So let's not just assume that you're either transitioning or going to be transitioning. You've already transitioned out and you don't like your job. A lot of you are in that role too. So a skill bridge internships, hiring our heroes calls it a fellowship, corporate fellowships, exposure programs. So exposure programs are becoming more and more popular.

Cheryl Cross : 37:08

Now, again, with the military timeline, it's a bit of a. It's a bit of a dance, right, you have usually the skill bridge. Time is the last 180 days of your military service, which tends to work well. So 11, so weeks or 12 weeks with the company is a long time for you to get exposure into that company and many companies that I know I have a client that has done it for many years they don't say you're coming in with a job. You have 11 weeks to interview for a job. Their job is to interview you or put you in front of a hiring team and give you the opportunity.

Cheryl Cross : 37:43

But it's up to you to really expose yourself to the opportunity, get into the culture, and that is invaluable. I wish more companies would do it. You really focused on being creative and I really, when you said that that person went back to the recruiter or the team and said, hey, I really want to be looked at. I've had that happen and it hasn't been so pleasant. How might you work with somebody? I've worked with you know, not as a consultant, but I've had people come to me and say you know I was rejected for that. I know I'm the right person for the job and in my mind that sort of puts you in another bank of. I'll probably never speak to you again because that's not your job to determine what my hiring team or my corporation needs. So give me another take on that how you might work with someone so they don't fall into that that bucket.

Mary Despe: 38:40

Yeah, no, this is a good discussion because that happens quite a bit too, and even though I did give that example, I mean I would say that's exceptional, the example. I gave. And certainly you know this. It all goes back to the strategy of how you're applying. It's multifaceted. And then I think the other thing that I would say with this is it's always important to have like your eye on the long game in these kinds of situations, because it's far more than just you know the one job.

Mary Despe: 39:15

I mean, if you feel like it is very appropriate for you, you know, and you are that compelled to follow up and do it by all means. I mean, I think it's always good to get feedback, you know, ask for it from your you know point of contact if there's anything that they can share. You know, it's funny because a lot of people don't ask for feedback. They're like, oh, they'll probably not say anything or nothing helpful. I'm like, I mean, you can control your part, you know. Lead them to control their part, you know, and see, you know, just be open to that. And while not everyone will give that, someone eventually will.

Mary Despe: 39:53

In your journey, the important thing is that we can. We can control what we do in the process of our job search and it is, you know, it's something that it's important to keep your eye on the long game of what you're wanting to achieve. So if one opportunity in this whole you know journey that you're on says no, you know, you can pick and choose if it's worth it to you to pursue it or move on and learn from it, right. So the thing is that we often wrap our hopes and dreams into one opportunity at a time. But it's also helpful to kind of take a step back and be like what did I learn from this to help me for this next one?

Mary Despe: 40:40

Obviously, I'm still on this journey and, you know, we can only be in control of what we, you know, have control of. We can't really respond and know exactly what other people will do because that's you know, that's their, that's their choice and this is what they're going to decide. But we can stay consistent and, you know, give our 110% for our search where we want to be, each each week. So it's not an easy coaching session but, like I always, you know, when I work with clients, it's like the reflection of like okay, so what else did we learn here? What can we take forward from this? And it really is to just kind of keep it as like a bank, you know of, like all these little bits of nuggets that we're learning along the way and how that's going to really help us land and be where we want to be. So that's usually how we focus and center our conversations and coaching, knowing that you're not going to win everything. You're not. You're probably going to hear more notes.

Cheryl Cross : 41:45

Yes and be prepared for that. I think you know I appreciate the military training so much because it is based on resilience, and I think military folks come into the workplace with such great skills in terms of resilience and the ability to see the big picture because they're looking at, maybe, a mission. You know, it's not just the now, not, they're not as reactive either. So thank you for saying that. I also agree with you when you talk about, you know, be prepared for to walk away. Please be prepared. Even. Don't get too excited for a role. Get excited when the offer comes through and you start negotiating the salary, if you haven't already. Get excited when you know that this is going to be a thing. So anyway, mary, you and I were going to continue our conversations and other segments. You've been so invaluable. The application process is is just full of, I hate to say, landmines, but it's full of surprises. It's full of learning opportunities and growth. Why don't you tell our folks, who are listening, how they might reach you? Is it LinkedIn?

Mary Despe: 42:51

Yeah, linkedin is usually the best way to reach out to me. You can look me up, Mary Despe D E S P E, and I'm happy to connect with people. I also like networking. You know I offer like a 20 minute networking call. So I have. Yeah, you can book a time with me anytime and you know we can work it out, and I'd love to get to learn more about people in depth.

Cheryl Cross : 43:15

I highly recommend you take her up on that. She's outstanding. Mary, thanks so much for being on the show and I want to thank you for listening. We'll be back with more. Welcome back to the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour on on X CHANGE. I'm your host, Cheryl Cross, and for our expert segment we have Marisol Maloney, and today she's going to be talking to us about salary negotiation salary expectations. She is a former Navy veteran, current mil spouse. She is a recruiter, an entrepreneur and a career coach for those transitioning from the military. Welcome, Marisol.

Marisol Maloney: 43:53

Hey Cheryl, thanks for having me.

Cheryl Cross : 43:56

I'm so excited to talk to you about this segment because I don't think we can talk about it enough. We talked on the phone about salary expectations. Why don't you tell me how you see it from the recruiter side and how you want to approach it as a coach?

Marisol Maloney: 44:12

When candidates come to me for the jobs that are available as a recruiter, they usually expect more money or the same amount of money that they're currently making in the military, especially the senior enlisted and more senior officers when in reality some of the roles that they're seeking out may not pay what they're currently getting in the military. And when you transition out of the military you really have to do your research on what the roles you're seeking next pay by location. A role that you want in Honolulu may not pay the same as Atlanta, Georgia or Jacksonville, florida. So you need to be aware of the cost of living and what those jobs pay, especially if you're doing a complete career transition.

Marisol Maloney: 45:00

I was recently working with a gentleman who was trying to get a role in emergency management and the national average at the time that he was looking was about 90,000. So he was like wait, but I'm in 04 making. I forget how much he was making, but he was including BAS and BAH and that's the mistake that pretty much like over 90% of transition military make, they want to include what they used to make, including the BAH, which you don't get that once you get out. So really you need to focus on more of your military base pay and work around that Take it from there. Just because you're in 06 doesn't mean you're going to walk into a $200,000 job. I'm not saying it can't happen, but you really have to do your research and network and then prove to that company why you are worth $200,000. And I promise you they will be working you for those $200,000.

Cheryl Cross : 45:52

It's so true, and living in a very high cost of living state, as I do, and recruiting for the region of the highest cost of living for the globe, I can tell you that, as folks were leaving the military and coming to talk to me for whatever corporation I was working for, that was truly hard for them to do because, quite frankly, it does play into their bottom line. They do. If they're the primary income earner or even if they have a dual income, it makes a difference. You're going to go to well, we have zippies here. How much are you going to be taking your family out? How is this going into your personal savings or budget? How is it changing things? I think it's valuable. You talk about the first year a lot. When I talk to candidates about salary, I always used to say definitely have a bottom that you're not willing to go below, but know that you won't sit there forever. Do you think that's a fair conversation to have during the salary negotiation? Absolutely.

Marisol Maloney: 46:57

You have to know what your absolute minimum is to live and to support your family, and also what I tell people. There are other things you can negotiate as well. Depending on the industry and the role, you could probably negotiate a company car. If it's an onsite job, you can negotiate maybe a work phone, a work laptop. These are things that can save you money. Maybe you can negotiate a bonus when you get that offer letter. So there's a sign on bonus that you can negotiate.

Cheryl Cross : 47:32

Another thing that I saw that's getting more popular the military will move you back to your home of record. Of course, if you're in a duty station that isn't near your home of record and I think you can keep kicking that can down the street for every year if you don't use it. Say, you stay in a certain location, but a lot of companies are offering relocation packages or relocation budgets. How would you use that as a leverage against a salary? Would you include it in the total compensation? Every recruiter I speak to is differently. What would you advise your clients to do?

Marisol Maloney: 48:07

I would ask, absolutely ask for that relocation allowance if they offer it. So you have to keep in mind, not everybody offers that. So when I was a candidate transition to the military these are my must-haves that I wanted. I wanted a relocation allowance if I was going to move. I wanted to work with a company that offered tuition reimbursement, because I didn't want to tap into my GI bill even though I have it and I still haven't tapped into it. So, for example, my company paid me to work to get my Lean Six Sigma Black Belt.

Marisol Maloney: 48:39

And there's also other programs out there for veterans that offer you free certifications, like all-merit opportunity, as an example. But yes, you can negotiate different things, and so you need to know what you want from a company. Do you want training? Will they pay for your training? For example, my company sends me to conferences and I love it, and they're expensive too, so I like that they pay for that. So find out what they offer and if it's what you want and or need. So only you know that For me. I'm a nerd, I love learning new things, I love training, so I'm going to keep asking my employer for other certifications, for them to pay for me.

Cheryl Cross : 49:18

So earlier you said something about not taking your HOLA or your COLA, your cost of living allowance or your housing allowance and putting that into the salary. I do know, on the international front, for those folks who were listening, if they wanted to go to a TESA or a SOFA-supported country. Some of those contracts per company basically based if it's a government contracting company per se, they may have baked that in, but not every company has those independent contracts. They're corporations that have sort of the same jobs over and over Would you recommend if they didn't see it on the website or they didn't hear it maybe from someone they know that worked at the corporation to boldly ask for things that are sort of out At what point do you stop asking for things?

Marisol Maloney: 50:05

I think it starts with the recruiter. The recruiter, for the most part, should know some of that stuff and, yes, you can also ask it of the hiring manager, especially in the interview when they ask you do you have any questions for us? That's your time to go in for the kill and say yes. Do you offer relocation allowance or any additional funds to cover the cost of living Housing? Maybe they provide housing, you never know, and that's something that could help you. So these are important questions that you should ask early. Ask them after you've gotten the offer letter and then expect them to just give you something because they already gave you the offer letter. It doesn't work that way. Sometimes, yes, it may work out in your favor, but other times it may work against you. So be smart on your approach. But I say talk to the recruiter first.

Cheryl Cross : 50:54

It's so important to do this work up front and I actually created a class that I gave to the TAPS folks over at Joint Base Pearl Harbor, hickam, and it was truly understanding what your anchors are for your salary negotiation. So you're walking into a conversation with confidence because you've already prepared for that part. So then you know what your bottom line is. In the MBA and the master's classes you'll hear something called BATNA the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. So BATNA is, to me, the floor. You don't go under the floor, you don't go to the basement. So this is the minimum, but you don't say it out loud. You know what your BATNA is and you're willing to negotiate in a range.

Cheryl Cross : 51:38

Another thing I always ask clients or excuse me, candidates to do would be give me a $10,000 range. Now I had a lot of freedom and flexibility in some of my recruiting roles. Other companies do not. And also I think it's important to add Marisol, what type of recruiter are you? Because we need to educate these folks on the different types of recruiters, how they represent the companies. Are they working for themselves? Are they getting a fee based on their placement? Do you want to start that conversation?

Marisol Maloney: 52:08

Sure, yes, so I'm a corporate recruiter, meaning I work directly for the company. I know there's like third party recruiters, contracting recruiters, but I work directly for my company and I recruit mostly for intelligence analysts with top secret clearances, and I also recruit for financial fraud analysts and we place them with the secret service. So most of my candidates are usually veterans or transitioning service members because they already have the clearances.

Cheryl Cross : 52:39

So you are really a true ambassador for your client or for your company. You're an employee and you are looking at people just for those roles. If you, I can explain what a contingent recruiter is, or they call them headhunters for those listening. Those folks are working with you as an individual and they are shopping you or representing you as a recruiter to their companies that they have as clients. Hopefully they have vendor relationships. I would hedge everyone listening If a contingent recruiter comes to you and says I'd like to represent you because you're a great candidate.

Cheryl Cross : 53:15

Asked to hear who the clients are, ask if they have contractual vendor relationships with them. You don't want your resume to go unsolicited to a corporation. It's not appreciated and I think it's bad practice. Contract recruiters are also. I think we hired a bunch of them and some of my other roles. Those folks acted as if they were with the company. So they are representing a client, but they may have a company that there is representing several, but each time they speak to you, they're speaking to you about one company. I know that gets confusing and we'll be explaining that over and over as these segments go on. But salary is something that is so frustrating and so, marisol, I see so many issues when people came to the salary conversation and they just stopped. They hadn't done the homework, they hadn't researched where they wanted to go, they didn't know the cost of living, they hadn't gone and done the homework. How much time do you request your clients spend just on the salary?

Marisol Maloney: 54:19

ask For the research. I recommend they spend a good two hours, maybe 30 minutes, a day, because I know it can be overwhelming, and some of the websites that I recommend going on is payskillcom, salarycom, Glassdoor, Indeed, LinkedIn, and also don't be afraid to ask the recruiter what does this job pay? And in some states now the employer has to divulge the salary. I know California is one of the states and I believe New York there's a few others, so not all the states are doing this, but some laws have been passed where employers in certain states have to tell you the salary.

Cheryl Cross : 55:02

And big global corporations that have jobs in many states are just doing it as a best practice, that if one job requisition says it, all of their job requisitions should say it, which is wonderful. Speaking of best practices and now law, I want to talk about why a company cannot ask you salary expectations. They can ask salary expectations, but why a company cannot ask how much are you making?

Marisol Maloney: 55:30

I don't know the exact law, but it is illegal for them to ask you that, and they are companies that still do that. Maybe they just slip up, I don't know, but I have candidates at tell me that other companies they've interviewed with have asked them that and unless you're going for a federal job, which they still ask you that for whatever reason, federal jobs get away with it. Corporate companies cannot do that.

Cheryl Cross : 55:53

So be mindful of that and what else plays into salary. I know you know this is a vet retirement. Why should you never talk about your retirement benefits or any money that the military is giving you when you negotiate your salary?

Marisol Maloney: 56:07

Plain and simple it's none of their business. It really is not none of their business. You shouldn't incorporate that as part of your negotiation. And also don't tell them oh well, I have medical and then also I don't need your medical benefits. If you want to decline, I'll fine, but don't tell them why I just I don't want them. Don't say because I'm getting all these medical benefits or however, you want to sell it because some companies are not going to give you extra money. You can try to negotiate more, but they will not always give you more money just because you turned down their medical and dental benefits.

Cheryl Cross : 56:43

So keep that in mind Agreed and one of the reasons that is is because companies buy into these plans and offer them because they have such a great workforce or a number of people, which is why the rates could get lower. So generally and it's not every company, because small companies can negotiate these things, but large corporate, usually publicly traded companies, I see is kind of the norm they use their benefits package and it's set for everyone, so it's fair to everyone. So every new hire gets this. And if you choose to use the health insurance, that's fine, but it's not negotiable to add to your salary. I tell everybody your salary is the best part of the company Negotiating that base salary. And then conversation for a sign on. Now let's talk about sign ons, because I think I've heard so many times. Well, I'll just make it up with the sign on bonus. Where's the big banner in the sky that says that everybody has a sign on bonus? Does your company represent sign up bonuses or do you guys have sign up bonuses?

Marisol Maloney: 57:51

It depends. It depends on what client we're representing, whether it's, you know, secret Service if you're the prime. So these are some things that people need to be aware of. It is the company that's hiring. Are they the prime contractor or are they the subprime?

Marisol Maloney: 58:08

So if we're the prime, sometimes they can offer a sign on bonus, but not always and it could be anywhere between, like you know, 5,000, 10,000, or it could be less. It varies by company and by the size of their budget and also the amount of money allotted for that role. So maybe it could only be like $500 or something like that. So don't always expect a sign on bonus just because you feel you deserve it. Same thing with the salary ranges. You know, if a role pays between 100 and 120,000, don't expect that you're gonna get 120,000. If you think you're worth 120,000 for a certain role, then you better bring it. You better show them the skills, the years of experience, your education. If it requires a degree, then you better show them that degree. If it requires a certain certification, like a project management, professional certification, then you better have it if you want top dollar.

Marisol Maloney: 59:03

So be mindful of that just because they can offer up to I don't know 200,000. Doesn't mean you will get it or that you even rate it based on your years of experience.

Cheryl Cross : 59:14

I like that Undervaluing yourself. How have you seen people undervalue themselves in the salary negotiation process or the salary ask?

Marisol Maloney: 59:23

Yeah. So I've seen the opposite effect too. So some people will overvalue themselves and some will undervalue themselves, and in both instances is lack of education, lack of research, know your worth. So I've noticed it's been common with women. Actually, women tend to undervalue themselves and they're like oh yeah, I want maybe 80,000, but the role I'm hiring for pays starting 120. I'm like try higher, you're gonna get a minimum of 120. And they're like oh my God, thank you so much. And but I'm that type of recruiter. I will give you the actual salary range. Some recruiters for what a reason they're not allowed to give you a range. I don't know why for the states that they still can get away with that. But I always share the range. Even before the laws passed, I was sharing the range with everybody. So I'm like this is what, this is the minimum, this is the most you can make. And I'll explain to them if the hiring manager feels that you're worth the top dollar, they will pay you the top dollar.

Cheryl Cross : 1:00:20

I think it's worthwhile to ask what I've seen a lot of companies do on those ranges, marisol, is they give such a broad range when you're giving a 20, 30, $40,000 range?

Marisol Maloney: 1:00:31

it's really hard.

Cheryl Cross : 1:00:33

You know, again, they're doing it because they, I believe they have to right. This is now law, but they have flexibility. If they have to have that flexibility based on your experience, based on their contract and, let me remind you, on government awarded contracts for companies that are handling those, those are audited constantly. So if you have contracted 30 people at a certain rate, you can't pay above that rate unless you go into your own coffers as a company and pay more, and some companies obviously do that because there is a war on talent. And I just wanna say thank you, marisol. We're at time. I think we could talk an entire hour. I'm certainly gonna have you back on other segments to talk about just everything under the sun. You are so valuable. Thank you so much. How?

Cheryl Cross : 1:01:23

might somebody get ahold of you. Is it LinkedIn you want? Can you spell the name for those who are watching on the video? Can you tell people how to reach you on LinkedIn?

Marisol Maloney: 1:01:33

Absolutely. I'm very active on LinkedIn. I'm always giving transition advice, resume tips and you can also book a time if you wanted to hire me, to write your resume or optimize your LinkedIn profile so more recruiters can find you. You can just book a time with me on my calendar. Just go to my about section. It's listed on there. You can connect with me, send me a message, ask me any questions you want and, yeah, find me on LinkedIn, let's connect.

Cheryl Cross : 1:02:00

M-A-R-I-S-O-L M-A-L-O-N-E-Y. Marisol Maloney, thank you so much for your time and energy today. Marisol, your rock star. Thank you For those of you listening. I certainly appreciate you being here today. We'll be right back Change. Hello, welcome back On our expert segment today. I'm so honored to have former law enforcement and now career coach, Tracy Forsha. Tracy, welcome to the show. I'm looking forward to what you have to tell us. Thank you for having me Appreciate it. I found you on LinkedIn, which is such a great way to find experts, and you were participating in a panel where people, not just former military but former paramilitary, had great advice. I know that you've made transitions from military into a different career and you're helping others not necessarily law enforcement, but people from all walks of life and careers go into different careers.

Tracy Forsha: 1:03:00

Tell us why you chose Valiant for your resume company and what you're doing, and why so the interesting story about why I chose the name Valiant Resumes is because I was looking for a word that was a synonym for worthy, and since resume worthy was already taken, I started checking some other synonyms and, lo and behold, Valiant. The third definition for Valiant is excellent or worthy, and so that was why I chose that name for my business. I've been doing resumes gosh since like the early 90s I did. I was in human resources for like 14 years before I transitioned to law enforcement, and I was there for 13 years and then I just retired in August. And now what I do is I do resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and I'm getting certified in career coaching and interview coaching as well, and so that's what I do.

Cheryl Cross : 1:04:05

Talk to me about that. So, as an interview coach, what are you providing to clients? How are you helping them?

Tracy Forsha: 1:04:12

So what I've seen is that a lot of people try to wing interviews and it really helps if you're prepared, because what I do is I've got a. A lot of my clients have been turned into top candidates where they landed their dream jobs, and that's really my goal, and the way to do that is to be prepared for your interview. So what I do is I teach you. I teach you secrets that top candidates use so that you can win the interview. Now, I can't guarantee a job, because that's up to the hiring manager, but the techniques that I do teach at least have a great chance of putting on the forefront of a hiring manager's mind.

Cheryl Cross : 1:04:58

Just give us one of those secrets, if you know. I know, as professionals in this industry, we kind of all know, but the folks that are listening may not know. So if you were to give one of those three, without selling the farm, so to speak, what would you say?

Tracy Forsha: 1:05:12

the best secret is I'd say definitely have an elevator pitch ready, anywhere between 30 to 45 seconds to no more than a minute, and sometimes that elevator pitch can answer questions that the hiring manager or recruiter may ask you, but your elevator pitch may have already answered that question. So definitely have an elevator pitch prepared.

Cheryl Cross : 1:05:36

So I'm going to put you on the spot. Can you give us your elevator pitch?

Tracy Forsha: 1:05:41

My elevator. I haven't prepared one in a while, but I'll give you the one that I used when I was interviewing in front of an oral board. Okay, go for it. So mine was. My name is Tracy Fourchet. I have a bachelor's degree in human relations and business and a master's in training and development. I have 13 years on the department. I was a field training officer for five years and what I do is I am looking forward to oh gosh, hang on, I messed up. Let me back. I'm sorry.

Cheryl Cross : 1:06:15

No, no, you're doing great, see. I just want everyone to know that we're not editing this out, because even the best have some hiccups. So let's take a collective deep breath and just go. You know, pull yourself back and I will. I'll wait. I'm going to share a little tip that I tell people. I use the past. You know, you hear this analogy past, present, future. I use present past future to train people for elevator fit pitches. Mine aren't 30 seconds, they're more like 11. So if you're using present past future, grounding yourself in the present, then talking about briefly your past, what you did, and then a future statement, which could also be an ask. So I'm Cheryl Cross. I'm currently a podcast producer and your host, today, former corporate recruiter, among other things, and today I'm looking forward to interviewing you, tracy. That's my 11 seconds using present past future. So go ahead, knock us out with your elevator pitch.

Tracy Forsha: 1:07:14

Okay, so I'm going to start over. Hang on, let me get back on the screen that I was looking at. Hang on, okay, so I'm going to start over. So I'm Tracy Forshey. I have a bachelor's degree in human relations and business. I have a master's in training and development. I've got 13 years on the department and I have eight years in patrol, five years as a field training officer, and my mission is to help the citizens of the city, to protect and serve them, and, as a leader, I look forward to setting a positive example for my troops to follow.

Cheryl Cross : 1:07:51

I like that. It really shows your background and your integrity, which is big. In law enforcement, we have to show the human side of a group that's not always seen as human. Did it work? I'm curious, how did that go?

Tracy Forsha: 1:08:04

Yeah, it was really good my oral. It was actually the second one we did where we had to do it actually on video, so we didn't have to do it in front of people, but we still had to practice it anyway.

Cheryl Cross : 1:08:17

I've worked a lot with fire and police and it's a non-essential civilian communications volunteer. I've never worn a badge and I certainly haven't carried a gun or protected anyone other than my own home. But I have such admiration for what you all do and I know from working with these groups that they're not orators, they are not comfortable taking sometimes the podium. They look at that like that's somebody who wants to be commander, police chief, et cetera, et cetera. So those folks who are not comfortable with that, let's say you're working with somebody who's wanting to transition to the next stage in their career within law enforcement. What would you say to them if they said you know I'm not really a great speaker, how would you work with them?

Tracy Forsha: 1:08:59

That's okay if they're not a great speaker. It just takes a lot of practice, and what I did was I made sure that I attended every single practice session that I could, and people that weren't great speakers also were encouraged to attend every practice session that they could. What I do for my clients is I work with them one-on-one. I also do practice like mock interviews. I also help you, helping with what to say and the right way, the best way to say it, so that you stand out to a hiring manager.

Tracy Forsha: 1:09:41

So it can be pretty uncomfortable because, to be honest with you, believe it or not, I am an introvert. So speaking is something that I have to practice constantly because I'm not comfortable a lot of times speaking out in public. But I've had to learn, and one of the best ways that I learned how to improve my speaking was to start teaching classes. So I actually taught in service officers and I taught at the basic Academy. I also taught of recruits at colleges, and so just by me teaching those classes, I improved my speaking, my public speaking, so many times over. And then also you can also enroll in public speaking courses like Toastmasters. Just start doing things to be able to perfect your speaking because that, right there, even the executives, the high executives, will tell you one of the best things to do for you to advance is to improve your public speaking.

Cheryl Cross : 1:10:41

Interesting. You know I I appreciate that I am a professional speaker. I learned at a very young age how to be a broadcaster, so that's kind of carried through with me. I can stand in front of a camera, I can be in a microphone, I can give me a microphone and you just can't shut me up. But I really admire those folks who come to me or in standing in presentations and being very authentic.

Cheryl Cross : 1:11:05

I think that that is far more impressionable or, sorry, more of an impression than being fake. Do you know what I mean? You? I think a lot of people feel they have to be polished. You know I can get up and sound like a broadcaster and you know that that went out about 30 years ago too. But they're even now in commercials and narrations, book narrations or any of the professional voiceovers. They don't want someone that sounds like a radio broadcaster from 1980. They don't. It's all about authenticity. So, as folks who are listening and appreciating your journey and your advice, I want to remind you that it's okay to stumble, it's okay to say can I go back to that later? It's okay to just be honest. You know, I don't know any anybody who's in an interview that isn't nervous, even those pros, when they're interviewed, they get nervous. I do, you know, I'm an expert at interviewing, I'm an expert at negotiation, but boy, it's challenging when I have to do it for myself. So just know that that's human, and if you weren't uncomfortable I would worry.

Tracy Forsha: 1:12:12

And it's okay. It's okay to ask an interviewer to either repeat the question or to ask for clarification. That's perfectly okay. Yes, yes.

Cheryl Cross : 1:12:21

So what do you think? Let me throw some scenarios. Let's say I'm your, your client, and I say to you, tracy, I'm, I'm worried, I, I am an introvert, I I have sometimes I can stutter, I kind of, you know, can't think of the word right away. I'm really nervous. Would it be okay if I said to the interview team I'm really nervous? What would your feedback be on that?

Tracy Forsha: 1:12:47

I wouldn't. I wouldn't say to to tell them that you're nervous. They already know that you are Because as a former hiring manager and recruiter, I I had my share of nervousness to interviewing others and I've also been in the same seat where I've been interviewed. So they know that you're already nervous. But what I do teach you is I teach you little tricks and things to help, to help spur your memory. I even teach you little little body language secrets to help you overcome your nervousness, because the more confident that you are, the better you're going to do, and that's not just with interviews, that's with anything. And so I really work with you to teach you certain tricks to help you.

Cheryl Cross : 1:13:31

So I'm sitting here, I'm like kind of turtling, as a behavior panel would say my favorite behaviorist. I'm turtling. I'm kind of, yeah, I'm in this cramped little space. This could be a video interview for me. What would you recommend that I'm? Do I do differently as my coach?

Tracy Forsha: 1:13:46

so, other than sit up, so I would teach you proper body language. There's there's ways that, like leaders, they they hold their hands a certain way. There's other things that you can do to help spur your memory, like like counting on your fingers. You can do that to help you, like first, this is what I did. Second, this is what what happened. Third, this was the result. You can use your fingers to help you. You can use it's okay to yeah, it's okay to even pause and say hmm and to just think about it for a little bit. That's perfectly okay to do.

Cheryl Cross : 1:14:24

Yeah, yeah. I cannot tell those folks that are listening how important it is to work with another person. You know we we gloss over our mistakes, just like you should never clean your own house because you're going to look past the desk bunnies you see them all the time. Having someone else have eyeballs on your behavior is so important. And you know, maybe you can't go out and hire a Tracy foreshad. I hope you can at least enlist her services at some point. But if you don't have access to a career coach, interview coach, resume writer, I recommend you get a family member and I recommend you get a child.

Cheryl Cross : 1:15:02

Maybe a neighbor somebody who's not worried you're going to hold back their allowance, but get it somebody who's a little bit more unfiltered to give you feedback, because children can feel that you know they feel energy and they might say, wow, you're amazing because you really are. Or they could say, yeah, I didn't like that. You. You know you adjusted your glasses a lot. That that was weird. Children are a great, great barometer. They're probably not the best barometer. Sometimes they may say some corny things, but hopefully you can get some professional advice and you know. Before we close out the segment we have just a couple minutes left I want to know really what is the greatest advantage or what makes you so passionate about what you do and you said earlier you love helping people get jobs. It's not your job to get them a job. You give them the tools, but what's your motivation for doing this work?

Tracy Forsha: 1:15:54

So I'm just really fulfilled when it comes to helping others. As I said earlier, I do have a training background. I was a field training officer for several years and one of the things I really, really enjoy is taking somebody from here to here, and then when, when they get it and it just clicks, that's another yes, and that is very fulfilling to me. And then there was also a time when I was a teen choir director and so just being able to give everything to them and for them to see it come to fruition from there was just so fulfilling to me. So for me it's more, it's more intrinsic Just really seeing helping people get to the next level and seeing how far that they grow and that right there means so much more to me than anything else. It's not, for my business isn't just about the money. My business is about the people that I help.

Cheryl Cross : 1:16:55

And how many sessions do you usually do with clients, is it? How often do you meet? What's your schedule like?

Tracy Forsha: 1:17:01

Well, since I just since I'm just getting my certifications at the end of this month, I haven't started any like. I don't say like you have X amount of sessions, so I'll give you as many sessions as you need to be able to get to where you need to be.

Cheryl Cross : 1:17:20

Okay, okay, and I would encourage people to not just hire someone for one time. You know, like Tracy said, seeing progression is really a confidence builder, not just for you, the client, but for the coach. And you know, I want to say that the things that you're encountering aren't necessarily unknown, but reading them on a or seeing them on a YouTube or a podcast don't necessarily make it work for you. You really have to take a thousand point of light approach. It may be reading something, trying something new and then finding your speed, but the goal is, you know, the resume gets you the interview, the interview gets you the job, and all of these components are very different. There's no magic formula. If there was, there wouldn't be a podcast like this or career coaches like Tracy. You just follow that protocol and bingo, bingo, you'd get a job.

Cheryl Cross : 1:18:16

It's different for everyone and I think one of the things that the beauty of this is is, if you're willing to uncover some of those truths, those things that you need to work on, you really will find that this is life changing. You're going into one of the most important decisions you'll make in your life, and where you live, where you work, who you marry all of these things death, marriage, jobs those are the top three big impacts into any person's life. So jobs are very important. Finding the right job, finding the right job for you, is great and what we're all looking forward to. I'd love for my folks to reach out to you, and they're not my folks, they're our community. How might our community reach out to you? Tracy, can you give us? You say your name differently than it's spelled, so why don't you spell your name and hook us up on your LinkedIn? Okay so?

Tracy Forsha: 1:19:09

my name is Tracy Forshay. It's spelled T-R-A-C-Y, and my last name is F-O-R-S-H-A. You can reach me on LinkedIn LinkedIncom. Slash in slash Tracy, hyphen Forshay slash. Or you can reach me on my email, Tracy at valiant resumescom, or you can go to my website at wwwvaliant resumescom. Those are really the best ways to reach me.

Cheryl Cross : 1:19:38

Tracy's an outstanding advocate for all people, not just those who are leaving law enforcement or looking to get bigger careers within law enforcement, but she also works with military, military spouses and those folks who are not in either. So thank you, tracy. You're such a pleasure. I know that you're going to just continue killing it and I look forward to seeing when you get that certification for your interviewing. I know you're going to be back on the podcast as well. It's very much appreciated. Thank you, have a great day. Okay, you too. I cannot believe it has been four episodes. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for being a part of this crucial journey and this dream of mine.

Cheryl Cross : 1:20:22

I'm Cheryl Cross. I'm your host of the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour. Let's say thanks to our guest today Jose Jimenez, Jr.. I had Mary Despe, Marisol Maloney, "maloney Out and Tracy Forchet. So many of you have so many things to share and I'm so honored to give you a platform to share your transition stories Before you leave, wherever you are. If you're going through a transition, if you're thinking of going through a transition in the future and you're preparing awesome. If you've been in the civilian workforce and are looking for more answers, or if you're just somebody who wants to give back thanks for joining us. Remember and I'll always say this at the end of the show you are strong, you are brave, you are skilled and you are trained. All of these things are needed in the civilian workforce. I believe in you Until next time. We'll see you soon.

Mary Despe: 1:21:22

Post-production for this episode is done with care by OceanTreeCreativecom. Thank you.