EP 5: From Combat to Corporate: Success Stories of Military Veterans

EP 5: Compass to Corporate featuring guests, Jai Salters, Lori Norris, Joshua Burch and Samantha Gassman

Episode 5 explores the challenges and opportunities of transitioning from military to civilian  careers. Today, we're excited to bring you a special episode titled, "Compass to Corporate," featuring four inspiring guests,  including one expert. 

Our goal is to lift the voices of 100 transitioning military.  Thanks for joining us. 

"Soup"

Our first guest is Jai Salters, an active-duty Navy officer and the founder of ACT NOW Education.  While not in the "Soup" of applying for jobs, Jai is still going through the thick of it, balancing his military service with the exploding success of his nonprofit, with his passion for helping others through education and career development. He'll why he does it, how he does it, and his vision of putting 1000 service members in tech jobs well ahead of his own transition in 2027.

"Expert"

Each segment hosts an expert, and we are pleased to bring you Lori Norris, the host of the insightful "Lessons Learned from Vets" podcast. With nearly two decades of experience, Lori is well-known in the military-to-civilian transition space.  Lori focuses on several topics, specific to those planning ahead, including the importance of focusing on skillsets and being tactical and strategic in your resume, and job applications.

"1+ Year Vet"

Joshua Burch, a veteran in his first year post-military made the leap from an overseas military position to the U.S. civilian workforce.  He'll share his personal experience of translating military skills into civilian job markets and adjusting to new financial realities outside of the military structure. His insights will highlight the challenges and opportunities that come

If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour, let us know. Go to www.xchangepodcast.com and click connect. A producer will read your request and get back to you. Thanks for your support!

Learn more about host, Cheryl Cross and her book, "CIVILIAN MISSION: The 3-Year Guide for Military Professionals Planning Civilian Careers" available for order online.

Transcript

Introduction: Justin Cruz: 0:00

Thanks for listening to the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour One hour of tips from experts and real stories from people just like you. For those thinking about what lies ahead, for those going through the job search and those who have paved the way to their next career after the military. These professionals are dedicated to helping you move forward successfully to the next phase of your career after the military. Welcome to Xchange.

Cheryl Cross: 0:47

Hey, thanks for being with us today. My name is Cheryl Cross and I am your host. I'm honored to have someone who's a bit of an unusual expert, but he's definitely an expert. The reason I say this is usually our experts have either left the military or some of them haven't served, but Jay Salters is both. So he is an expert trying to get folks jobs with his wonderful education foundation and he is an active duty officer in the Navy. Well, hello there, hi, jay. Thanks so much for joining us.

Jai Salters: 1:17

How are you doing, Cheryl? Thanks for having me on.

Cheryl Cross: 1:19

I'm so happy to be here. We were talking a little bit before I hit the record button on the incredible momentum that you have experienced with the let's see if I can get it right ACT NOW Education. You mentioned and I said we'd start this way. This was just a brief for you and you've briefed the White House. You've taken this. Tell us the where this is and how it started, because this story is fascinating to me.

Jai Salters: 1:45

Oh okay, oh yeah, thank you, Cheryl. So the way ACT NOW Education actually started back in 2008, at least the concept of the idea Some good mentor of mine provided me with some information that I was just flabbergasted about. It was like this sounds like it feels like a cheat code, like this is he was essentially showing me how you can pretty much use CLEPS and Dantes to get majority of your degree done and, in some cases, possibly just test out of your degree, as long as you are able to take some of the schools versions of those exams, like TCEPS or Excelsior has their own versions and I was like, wow, I didn't even know anything about this. This can like expedite my degree quickly, because I joined the military to make sure, I knocked out my degree and eight years went by and I didn't have anything to show for it, and so he provided me that information and I was like, okay. And then I was like, if that's out there, what else is out there that I just don't know about that can benefit me? So I started doing a little bit more research and it turned into a couple of slides of information, maybe about 25 slides of information that I don't know if a lot of people learned about, and so I started sharing that information.

Jai Salters: 2:59

And then, yeah, that's kind of how ACNAW education grew. One, I'm not a public speaker, or at least I always say that and two, I'm just a really I'm an advocate of helping others and being able to bring others up as well, because it also keeps you on par with what you need to be able to do. If I'm motivating you, you're motivating me. We're going to get this done. And so I started doing that, started doing the presentations. My first presentation was horrible. It was a bunch of stuff on the slides Like I said, a lot of awkward pauses for me, and I was like, yeah, I'm never doing this again.

Cheryl Cross: 3:37

Hey, fail fast, fail forward. So you're at the juncture now where your goal and you've got about four years left of your military service, of your active duty and your goal is to get 1000 people jobs.

Jai Salters: 3:49

Absolutely.

Cheryl Cross: 3:50

Am I right? Yes, how many of you got jobs so far using this cheat sheet, this method and creating this foundation, this education foundation?

Jai Salters: 3:59

So this year has been roughly on about 100, I mean, sorry, 51. And I'm weighing the confirmation we're probably going to have like 55 by the end of the week or tomorrow. By tomorrow I would know if four other got picked up, but for sure. But last year was about 173 that we got and that was like unintentional. I was just more so providing people with free resources like Coursera, splunk and things of that nature or connecting them to employers, and that just turned out, and so that's why my focus this year is making sure that I get folks into roles, and I have till 2027 to do that, and so I'm looking forward to getting 1000 people on board.

Cheryl Cross: 4:41

You've done some really interesting things and I like how careful you are with your alliances. There's some bad actors out in our community that are trying to take advantage of folks because, well, they just don't know right. So here we all stand on the rooftops. I said this to Lori Norris. I've said this to Marisol Maloney folks you already know, like you know, we're standing on the rooftop, we're holding hands and we're all screaming about. You know. This is what you should do, this is what you should think about. This is the information. You are a great information provider, but you're also connecting, which is very unusual. So you created something I want you to highlight with Clark University. Can you talk about that?

Jai Salters: 5:19

Yes. So we have the three cert cohort, which provides a few unique perspectives for us. You know a lot of folks say, hey, go through tap. It's a firehose of information. Sometimes the TAP instructor is a old guy that really doesn't care about being there and I'm just saying, like, how, how, what people's opinions were provided to me? I've actually signed a tap course, I went through the information and I've actually taught the tap course as well. Okay, so I for me, I was like, well, how can we do this better? And so partner with Clark University, our our course, the three sir cohort.

Jai Salters: 5:58

What we decided to do is really dive into some of the key elements. We wanted to provide certifications that were meaningful. We want to provide a strong foundation that provides you with understanding, how to find and you know we don't want to just give you a fish when I teach you how to fish show you how to find jobs, show you how to do the salary negotiation, show you how to look up salaries, show you how to find your interest. If you don't know what, that is right? So if you're a kid in the candy store, how do you know which one you want to choose Right? And so we really focused on that and being intentional on that and then being able to broaden it out to this is how you define the career that you're interested in. This is how you touch base with the person and, rather than, like I guess, talking around it I could say so connecting folks and understanding, starting with the end in mind. If you want to work for this particular company, understand what their vision is, how to your skills relate to them, what can you add value to them, because our resume is not necessarily just. You know, information about us is how we can solve a problem for that company, and Lori Norris says that all the time, and so it's important for people to understand those key factors right. Also, you know how you present yourself, the way that you work on interviewing or talking or communicating. Those things are really important.

Jai Salters: 7:19

So we kind of put that all together, made it our own little version of tap and I had 30 folks go through it and had a really high success rate on folks landing jobs and opportunities and completing certification. We had 100% pass on scrum. We had 100% pass on sec plus and then the first one actually the first one we did project plus and we had roughly about 20 people passed that out of 30. So it wasn't that bad. But the second one we did it with PMP and I think for a PMP we've had the highest pass rate. According to Matt Quinn, we had a highest pass rate for any course because essentially normally had 50% or 60% pass and so we had, I think, roughly about I think it was like 80% pass.

Jai Salters: 8:10

So we only have a handful of people not get through.

Cheryl Cross: 8:13

But yeah, well, it's not easy. I mean it's. I've taken the course, I haven't taken the certification yet. It scares the heck out of me. But you have another cert to success. Can you talk about that?

Jai Salters: 8:24

So I search the success. We just ran this, and that was in August, and that was for military spouses. So we typically choose a demographic. So either that first one was military spouses, because we wanted to give back to military spouses and when we mean military spouses we're not just saying active duty military spouses, we mean veteran military spouses, past, present and future. Like we are, we're trying to help anyone that of lines with that right.

Jai Salters: 8:49

And so this program was opened up to all the military spouses. We had 30 candidates go through. We provide the same thing, the same type of training, upfront salary negotiation opportunities, and show them how to find that. And then given the confidence right, understanding that they bring a lot more to the table than they think they do, and then aligning them to those job positions. And so so far we've had three folks get jobs all remote, strangely enough, like. And then one of them is that she's a data analyst. She's making close to $93,000 a year for organizations and the great thing about that is she's actually applied to the company. She's applied to the company she got a job for. She she actually applied to the moment, say, a couple of months ago or years ago or a year ago and they didn't accept her. But after she went through our program, had these additional certifications and was able to articulate herself better, she ended up getting a great job in the highest salary she can get out of that position.

Cheryl Cross: 9:49

So that's amazing. I love that you're teaching them to unlock their worth. It's so hard. Again, we talk about structured, predictive career environments. Working in the military for four or 30 years, you're not really getting a salary that you're asking for. You're getting a salary based on your level and your rank and GS same thing. You know you're working towards that next level, that next, that next later rung In corporate America. It's a lot more fungible. Now, this was interesting for you to learn, I bet. How did you learn so much about the outside world? Did you just immerse yourself? Do you have good people around you? Who are your corporate civilian workforce friends and how are you making those connections?

Jai Salters: 10:35

I would say I pull a string and then, you know, a lot fell out. I was like more opportunities came out than I expected Originally. I'm, just you know, thirst for knowledge. Just you know, I'm always trying to do my own research and figure out what's going on, what opportunities go on. And, as I found, good programs started sharing that, my network grew. And it sounds really simple, but it, I mean, I really can't explain any other way than that. My network grew based off the things I was doing in social media and based off of me, you know, being interested in learning as much as I possibly can about opportunities.

Jai Salters: 11:11

That may be available because, at the time, like I'm not transitioning but I still want to be prepared, and so I guess you can say like I've been transitioning for the last 10 years, right, so it's, it's and that's. That's provided me a lot of great benefits as far as also bringing my team with me. We have about 16 team members, all volunteers, everyone's volunteers from our organization and I've had them from since day one, and I know there's not even a lot of organizations that can say that, especially when no one's paid, everyone is volunteering, everyone is providing their support and passion. But just being able to have your own tribe, work with a group of individuals that are like minded or like hearted, you know to be able to achieve a goal or help others.

Jai Salters: 12:01

I've learned early on in my career that my success is, though, however great they are, they really don't like, they don't make feelings have a way. When I accomplish something Okay, I got my master's degree, I got my bachelor's it's like, okay, what's next? But when I help others accomplish their goals, it's, it's refreshing to me, it's, it's a different added value. Yeah, so, yeah, it feels good.

Cheryl Cross: 12:24

You are definitely doing the right thing. I want to ask you about session Saturdays we talked about this in our prep talk and how you know obviously everybody that's listening is going to want to make some connection with you. We'll definitely hook them up on ways to connect with you, even though you're very busy. You have two jobs you have the Navy and then you have this and a family and that's so. That's three jobs.

Jai Salters: 12:48

I'm curious what session. I'm not looking for a job, but I'm not having a four-pronged one as well.

Cheryl Cross: 12:54

Well, maybe that'll be another show, so you're just a really busy guy. But tell me what Session Saturdays are, and then we'll. We'll talk a little bit more about how folks can get engaged with you.

Jai Salters: 13:03

Yeah. So Orientation Saturdays, when we do our sessions, are essentially really providing what ACT now brings to bear. As far as resources that are available to you, Everything that we do for the military community is free, and so we talk about some of those free resources that may people just may not be aware of, like Coursera, Splunk, how to get you know certain types of certifications, how to get a free Udemy account. You know a lot of things that people just are just. This is not common knowledge or should be common knowledge, but they may not feel like that way, and so we do that and also bring in employers or organizations that provide resources to talk about what they do and how they help out the military community and opportunities they can take advantage from there.

Jai Salters: 13:48

So every Saturday at 1pm Eastern Standard Time, it's on our ACT Now Education website. You can go there and look at orientation. It's at the top right or if you go all the way down to the bottom, you used to see orientation, sign up and you can attend as many times as you want. We have people that have gone 15 to 20, 30 times. They said this is what I do every Saturday and I was like I feel like me because me and my coat. Well, Anwar is the host now. He runs it, and so he's been doing it with me 365. No, not stopped. There's not been a single day where we have not done it, so yes, and who is this you talk of?

Cheryl Cross: 14:28

What's this person?

Jai Salters: 14:29

His name is Anwar, he's an Army vet, he's an Army officer in Texas and, just the same way as anything else, like everyone in my organization, I'm always connected to volunteers that have the same type of passion and when I come across them, somebody like that, it's just I don't know, it's just an instant connection. And then their ACT now. So you remember, before they know it. So Anwar was actually. He was on the other side of the table, he attended one of the orientations and he started providing some information and I was like, okay, I'm listening. And then he was talking about a program and resources. Like, okay, I'm listening. And then I let him talk. And then there was another question come up and then I tapped on him say, anwar, what you got for this? And he went on for like another 15 minutes and I told everybody in front of everybody.

Jai Salters: 15:16

I was like yep next week he will be on the ACT now team, so be prepared. And so now he's hosting it and he's yeah, so it's a good deal. So yes, that's awesome.

Cheryl Cross: 15:27

So you're gonna you're gonna recruit some other people. So ACT now is going to grow Absolutely. I believe you will hit your thousand before 2027.

Jai Salters: 15:36

Yes.

Cheryl Cross: 15:36

You might even surpass it.

Jai Salters: 15:38

Yes, that's the goal.

Cheryl Cross: 15:39

If somebody in the audience that's listening wanted to connect with you and help, what's the best way for them to do that? Or do you want them to just go through the program? It's no cost, it's just time. It's your time and energy, it's sweat equity we call it. Is that the best way for them to get involved with you?

Jai Salters: 15:57

I would say there's a couple of factors. One is, if they feel that they're trying to figure out what their path is, it'd be good to kind of understand what we're about and see if it's something that you know gels well with what they want to do. Though we are a volunteer organization, there is a demand right, because a lot of people do ask us questions and look for help and look for guidance, and we want to make sure that we get the right people that are willing to do that and can afford to do that as far as their time, to be able to support. And so a lot of times we say just get to know what we are, what we do, and be a part of us in those means. And if you can figure out there's something that we're not doing that can make us better, definitely suggest that, help us out with that. A lot of what we have now is because of small suggestions folks have made or things that they was like hey, how come you guys don't have like an ambassador team? We need act now ambassadors. And we put that out there and we got 700 replies back. So I was like I don't know who we can manage that, but when it's still stuff.

Jai Salters: 16:57

Stuff like that is it's a great opportunity, right said and is we're really community based organization, meaning, even though I'm somewhat the figurehead, everything is really for the community. This is not we're trying to make money off the military. I mean, there's plenty of enough organizations out there to do that. That's the veteran. There's he a dollar sign? We don't care much about that. I am the veteran community, I am the transition service military community. I am that person. So I am essentially just trying to really help our community strive, achieve and elevate, and so if you feel that that's something that you would want to be a part of, definitely reach out, look at what we do, do your research on us and see how you can add value. Yeah, I won't ever turn down a hand, but I would definitely let you know that it's harder than it looks.

Cheryl Cross: 17:48

So, yes, I want to say thank you so much for your, your energy and your enthusiasm and what you're doing for this community. I love meeting people like you. It makes me feel like I'm on the right track. We're all kind of pointing in the same direction. But you really got me beat, man. I wrote a book to tell people to start three years in advance and you're you're way ahead of that curve. You've been planning this for forever. You're going to be the most prepared person. So, magic wand, where do you see yourself in four years at the end of this journey? Is it easy for you to think that way, or are you just thinking of the now?

Jai Salters: 18:27

I know I typically set. I'm a goal setter, so I set my mindsets and goals that I would like to achieve. The thing that's been happened to me recently is, when I have goals, I typically end up doing those goals a lot sooner. And I give you an example, a t my end of my transition for this whole thing, my big vision was I'm going to do a hiring fair and I'm going to have a bunch of people there getting jobs and that's what's supposed to be 2027. That was my idea, I want to say about maybe six months ago. It is now October I mean November timeframe and I'm doing a hiring fair at one of the biggest stages that we can possibly have. So, yeah, but ultimately, what I would like to see is I want to create a really. I want to do a couple of things. I want to create a pipeline for job opportunities that's not discriminatory, that really helps focus, focus people on their skillsets and talents and getting them to roles and positions that they're interested in, whether it be tech or whatever it is. Just really they can trust this process and the service. The other thing I would like to do is I would like to revamp training for TAP. Now, I know that, you know that's a government process and you know VA versus, you know the DOD and all that that comes with that. But I want to be able to build out a pipeline for certified trainers that understand the resources from our capacity. That way they can talk to them and provide direct impact on it.

Jai Salters: 20:00

Not saying it's not being done in the way now, but I feel like there's a big gap and a lot of information is not talked about. It's not and it's hurting our community as far as you know, thinking that some of the stuff is going to be beneficial when how much of that stuff is actually tangible, how much the stuff actually leads them into where they're trying to go? We have a lot of folks that you know do their first job and within their first year or so, they're looking for another job. So what can we do, based off of all the free resources and the sea of goodwill? How can we kind of organize it so that people can find their path?

Jai Salters: 20:39

And so that's what I think my next focus would be. And then I want to be able to hire, get more folks hired than you know any other company. So I just want to be able to be that source of "did you reach out to act now education. Or I reached out to act, now education and I got this new job? I want that to be like a common post. I reached out to act now education. This is how much I make. This is the job I do and I love what I do.

Cheryl Cross: 21:03

I love it. I'm just in the final edits of my book and I just realized that I don't have act now, education and the resources. So guess what? You're going to be on page something and I'll make sure that page something gets to you. So thank you so much for all you're doing. I'm going to keep my eyes on you, friend. You are doing good things and I love your energy. I know you're going to be attending a big conference right now and this recording is timeless, so we won't say what year or time it is, but I definitely want my folks to know who you are, know what you're doing and, if they have some spark, some interest, that they connect to you. And yeah, man, I just want to sit next to you and have some of that energy rub off on me, because I like where you're going.

Jai Salters: 21:46

I have a lot of energy wait until you meet my team. Oh, they are. Yes, make sure you have a good group of people around you that challenge and push you, because yeah, it helps you become better each day.

Cheryl Cross: 22:03

I agree. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. These voices are important. Your voice of transition. I'm so honored to bring this to you because this is really new for a podcast series. I'm your host, Cheryl Cross, and we'll be right back after this message. Welcome back. I'm so happy to bring you another wonderful expert in the field of career veteran transition into the civilian workforce. I tuned into Lori Norris's podcast recently and found that she has almost 20 years of experience in the field of working in career services. Lori, welcome to the show and thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us today. I'm excited to be here, but you didn't have to say that number out loud. That 20 years makes me so happy. Well, we are talking about veterans. We talk about veterans in the civilian world. It's usually somebody who has more than 15 years and you are not old. You are still incredibly knowledgeable and have a lot of information to share.

Cheryl Cross: 23:09

You've worked a lot with people who are listening to us today, working towards their transition, during their career transition, making that leap. Tell me some of your takeaways that you've learned over the last several years.

Lori Norris: 23:29

Well, I think the biggest thing that I've learned in you know, we're at 130 episodes by now of the podcast is that transition is more than just finding a job. It is so much more than just finding a job I'm officially transitioned. It's so much more in depth. There's a lot of culture shock. There's a lot of mental aspect that goes into it. There are so many changes that are happening. It goes so far beyond the job search process. I want everyone to think about all of the other aspects of the transition. I wish we could stop calling it a transition. To be honest with you, that indicates there's an end point in mind. I know people that are five years, seven years, eight years out and they're thriving and doing great, but they say I'm not sure I've fully transitioned out of the military yet, Exactly.

Cheryl Cross: 24:38

Another one of our guests, Steve Janke, who is Mission Wisconsin, said transition doesn't stop. I'm constantly transitioning. 15-plus years I'm in transition. I'm transitioning into new workspaces, new opportunities. Tell us about your podcast. I love this part of our featured segment because we get to bring new resources. I told you this on the phone. This is a huge table that we sit at. There's a lot of empty seats for people who are ambassadors, for people transitioning out of the military and looking at civilian careers. Lessons learned for vets is the name of the podcast. Tell us about it.

Lori Norris: 25:43

The concept behind it is that I bring on veterans who have already traveled the transition path, whether it was three months ago or 20 years ago, to talk about the lessons that they learned along the way, some of them the hard way right. Where did they struggle, where did they stumble, what were the keys to their success and just what did they learn along the way? I interview them, we talk about what they've learned. They give advice. Every episode is a little bit different. I always say at the end of every episode if you've learned just one thing that you can put into action to make your transition smoother than I've done my job that's really what I believe is I want you to come away with action steps at the end of every episode that you can put into place. I always liken our show as the Curves Ahead sign on the road. The fact that the sign is there doesn't make the road less curvy. It just helps you prepare and slow down and be ready for the curves when they come. That's really what the show is all about.

Cheryl Cross: 26:50

That's exactly what we're here to share as well. Your situation is going to be so unique as an individual. There may be a few other people who have gone through it. I just interviewed a woman who's in the Middle East and being med transferred out. She's getting a medical retirement, but the service told her it would only take a few weeks, while it's been five months, here she is. She's out of her home country, she's navigating housing, she's trying to find a job. It's really tough when you don't have a clear timeline. These situations happen every single day. I think that her resilience and what she told us was invaluable. I know guests on your show are going through all of those situations. I've learned so much from your podcast, but the podcast isn't really all that you do. Tell us about what you do as a professional and as a consultant in the career space.

Lori Norris: 27:47

So I started a resume writing and career services business back in 2004. I had been teaching job search skills to adults. First I started teaching high school students, but that was not for me. Then I went to teach adults. Around that time I'd had my second child and said I think there's a business here for resume writing. I went full-time into my business around early 2005, but I really missed teaching. I called Luke Air Force Base, which I live very close to, and asked if they needed a volunteer educator and have been volunteering out there really up until last year pretty regularly.

Lori Norris: 28:29

I do resume writing, linkedin profile writing. What I say is I will help you mine out your value statement, your accomplishments that you didn't even know exist, and really help you turn those into sales-focused marketing pitch, because that's what a resume, a cover letter, a LinkedIn profile really are your marketing pitch for yourself. I kind of half jokingly call myself bilingual because I have learned to speak the language of all the branches of the military and I really like to service that communication bridge between the military world and the civilian world. They say Billet and I say no, that means this. They talk about hanger queens and I say no, we're going to talk about that in logistics terms. It's really been a lot of fun to learn all the different terminologies. I like to serve as that bridge to help people learn how to market themselves.

Cheryl Cross: 29:28

I like the name of your company Get Results. Can you give us an idea of the type of results that you see? Is it always when someone gets a job, or is it when they have that aha moment? What are results for you?

Lori Norris: 29:41

You know, I always wanted to be a very personalized company and so my tagline is personalized service and proven results, so you can get a job with a bad resume. If only good resumes got jobs, we would have like a 75% unemployment rate because there's some very bad resumes out there. But the results are expediting that process right. It's helping you to showcase your value in the workplace so that a recruiter can look at your resume and go. I know exactly how I can put this person to work in my company. I see the value that they can bring to me and I understand why they're worth the money that we are going to pay them. And that's really what a true job search marketing tool does for you. It showcases your value because you know your resume.

Lori Norris: 30:38

Your interview answers your LinkedIn. It's not about you. It's about how you can help the employer. That's what I like to do is I facilitate, helping people understand how to identify and communicate that to their potential employer. And when I talk about results, it's about getting your phone to ring right. That's the true value of a resume is like.

Lori Norris: 31:03

Your resume is just your. I think is Marisol, who's on your show, probably told you it's your ticket to the dance right. It is your opportunity to go to the interview and I really believe that if I just write your resume for you, you're going to get in that interview and someone's going to ask you about it and you're going to go. I don't even know what that means. So we do it together. I don't write your resume for you, I write it with you because I want to prepare you for the next step, which is your job interview, so that you can thrive not only in getting your foot in the door, but also in talking about your value and your worth to that employer once you're in the interview. Because it's really it's. They go hand in hand, they're, they're. You can't have a great resume and have not thought about your networking, your communication, your interview skills, so they really go together.

Cheryl Cross: 31:53

All of it, I agree, and value statements can also be used. You know we joke the 11 second elevator pitch like you're going to be, you know, in an elevator trying to get someone to get you a job or to get you that interview. Well, networking happens everywhere and having that value statement is part of the strength that you come forward when you present yourself to someone. Hemming and hawing, when you meet somebody who could potentially put you in touch with a career, a dream career or a job or just an interview is there's I cannot say enough, you having confidence. You just can't go to the store and buy it. It's learning who you are and having strength in that. So let's talk more about.

Cheryl Cross: 32:35

I love that you say you're a multi military linguist. It's taken me a few years to understand it and I'm still in the soup trying to figure out some of these things. When you talk about lessons learned, you've had so many episodes. I think you talked about Marisol Maloney. You've had several guests. What were some of your takeaways just in the last year? I know you're doing them about once every couple of weeks. Is that right?

Lori Norris: 33:03

It comes out every Wednesday. I take a break from mid-November to January, but every Wednesday we release an episode. I think it's Wednesday at midnight, so that's when they come out. There have been a lot of commonalities. You said it earlier, every transition is unique, but what I've seen is there are some common threads that run through, but the people that are struggling they sit there and they feel alone. They feel like they're the only one facing this.

Lori Norris: 33:34

Just last week we had Eric Breaux, who is just this big, huge personality in the transition space. Eric is just this bundle of positive energy and he shared on his show that he almost gave up in his transition. He sat there at his computer and was ready to do the research, but he didn't even know what to research. He felt like such a failure. The biggest thing I want anyone listening is to know that you are not alone in this process. I think the title of his episode was Letting Go of your Ego, because he said I had to put my ego aside. He said I was the NCO, I had to know the answers. I don't know. It was not an acceptable response to a question. As an NCO, he said I had to put that aside and say I don't know what to do. I need help.

Lori Norris: 34:32

Once he did that, everything just fell into place for him and his success has been meteoric. Since then he's not ever applied for a job. He's on his third role and everyone has come to him because he is such a big personality with a big heart. But he almost gave up, and that breaks my heart to hear that. I just want everyone listening to know that, even if you're struggling, even if it's hard, there is somebody that has faced that. I want to be that voice to tell you it's going to be okay. These are other people that have struggled and they made it through, and you can too.

Cheryl Cross: 35:10

Yes, and that's exactly what we're doing here Real stories from real people who are in the soup, those who are going through the process of interviewing, of writing resumes, of rejection. That can be incredibly isolating, getting a ton of rejection, and oftentimes I find I don't know if this is something you learned, but I find that a lot of people who are transitioning aren't applying at the right times, so they're a year or so away from their transition and I can't say this enough. But a lot of companies aren't hiring a year in advance. So you're putting yourself through a lot of mental anguish and stress by hitting that apply button too early.

Cheryl Cross: 35:51

Now there are companies out there and I'm sure in the comments there'll be a few companies that do. They have those sort of evergreen type jobs, but for the most part jobs are open for a 30, 60, 90 day window and that's when those companies are looking to fill those roles, depending on the type of company it is. You're setting yourself up for failure if you're going to be applying too far in advance. Say to a recruiter or a hiring team I'm not available for six months, eight months or a year. Well, gee, sorry, nice meeting you. That's when you start networking, right.

Cheryl Cross: 36:26

That's when you start meeting people and start setting together, putting together your timeline. You are such a valuable resource for us and I hope to have you back. I will continue to tune into all of your shows because I always learn so much. What's one big takeaway that you could give, not just a takeaway? What is one tip that you would like to leave, other than you're not alone. For someone who is, I'd say, maybe let's not talk about the ones that are just going through transition. What about the ones that have transitioned out, have been in the career field for about five years and really are still not happy? What would you tell them?

Lori Norris: 37:09

I would tell you that veterans are loyal by nature, especially those who have served 20 plus years. I would tell you that if it's not working for you where you are, you can always change. I named my education company, which I'm still working on, next for vets because I don't want you to think about 20 years from now. I want you to think about what's next. If you're in that role, then you can think about what's next after that. Don't be afraid to pivot and make changes in your career. You can listen to the show and hear countless examples of people who have pivoted. I'll tell you, the biggest struggle that I see whether you're in the transition or you're out and you don't know what to do is that you need to have a focus. I jokingly say the word focus so much on my show that it's going to become a water drinking game, but then everyone will be over hydrated. I live in Arizona, so you can't be over hydrated today. Today, my AC is out and it's 110 outside. It's really fun. You're glistening.

Cheryl Cross: 38:22

You're absolutely glistening this is why I thought you just had an answer. This is why.

Lori Norris: 38:28

I really want you to think about that. You have to have that focus, because no one wants to hire a jack of all trades, because what comes after that? Master of none. Basically, if you're telling them I can do anything, what you're saying is I don't really specialize in any one thing. If you've ever tried to drive a nail into a piece of wood, a hammer works a lot better than a Swiss Army knife. You could probably get that nail in the wood with a Swiss Army knife, but it's not going to be nearly as efficient. You need to tell them what are you the hammer for? Have a focus, specialize. Don't be afraid to niche down your experience and knowledge and target into the industry and type of career you want. That is where you're going to struggle is if you're trying what we call the spray and pray method, where you're just trying to throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks, that's going to be tough. That's where you're going to struggle.

Cheryl Cross: 39:29

It's so true. Thank you so much for your advice. Remind us how we can get in touch with you if somebody listening wanted to hire you as a career consultant. How do they go about doing that?

Lori Norris: 39:40

Look for me on LinkedIn. First of all, Connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love to have that connection. I offer weekly information resources advice. I also have articles on there about resume writing and so forth. My website for the Lessons Learned for Vets podcast is just LLFOR, or even the number for works, vetscom. That is the website to the podcast. We're on all the major podcast platforms. Then my company's name is Get Results Career Services, which you can find at GetResultsResumescom.

Cheryl Cross: 40:17

I love it. I'm going to have you back. I'm a huge fan. You are the OG for this type of information. Going to vets, I gleefully follow in your shadow. Thank you so much for being on with us today. We'll look forward to an update in the near future.

Lori Norris: 40:33

Thanks for having me and thank you for what you do as well, you bet.

Cheryl Cross: 40:49

We're back. Hi, I'm Cheryl Cross. I'm your host of the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour. We are on our third segment of the hour, and that is when we talk to those veterans who have been out in the workforce at least a year, but no more than five. So I'd like you to welcome Air Force veteran Josh Burch. Hey, Josh, thanks for joining me today.

Joshua Burch: 41:11

How's it going, Cheryl?

Cheryl Cross: 41:12

It's good. You know we always prep a little bit before I interview anybody, and you have an interesting story of transition and it's one that a lot of the folks who are OCONUS face especially over in Europe. Can you tell us a bit about your transition story from Germany?

Joshua Burch: 41:28

Yeah.

Joshua Burch: 41:28

So about a year ish before I got out, I was approached by some trainers and asked if I was interested in doing some traveling training.

Joshua Burch: 41:40

I said that would be awesome because it meant that I got to keep traveling and I would have a position already held for me before I ever even separated.

Joshua Burch: 41:49

So they were going to hold it up until the day I got out, which is pretty great. You can't beat that when you already know you have a job before you get out. So I accepted that and then I waited until around the time that it was time to roll out of Germany and headed back to the States and was already working from day one. I had, I think, almost 120 days of leave, so I was able to work long before I had even finished my military time. And that was really beneficial when I transitioned over, so that I could get used to the way that finances change significantly, from the time that the government's given you your BAH and your regular pay and your BES and all that, and now you're kind of footing the bill from this big lump sum that isn't broken up in the same way that was previously. And then I started pretty much from the first day that I was back in the States or I was already working.

Cheryl Cross: 42:47

Yeah, so did the company relocate you anywhere, to the States, to the mainland?

Joshua Burch: 43:41

No, so I actually my wife is from the local area here in the DC area and so we knew that she had a job lined up, so that it kind of made the decision to come back here easier. Had we not known that, it probably would have been a significantly more difficult decision, because the job is 100% remote that I have, so I could really go anywhere, which is kind of a double-edged sword, because when you can go anywhere, where do you choose to go, especially when you know that your money is not maybe going to go as far as it did in the military, when they're guaranteed to pay you a certain amount based on the locality.

Cheryl Cross: 44:20

You did your research, you knew that the DC metro area would be a little bit more expensive. Good yeah, it's important to do that. And you know, talk to your spouse, your significant other. I think that the timing of getting a spouse job and your job is so integral, especially when you're coming from overseas, you know. Were there any hiccups for you in that move and how long did it take you? I know sometimes it takes like 90 days or 60, 90 days to move. Was that your situation?

Joshua Burch: 44:49

Well, we were blessed because we came back to the same location we had left from.

Joshua Burch: 44:55

So I was stationed at Andrews and I headed to Ramstein and then I was coming back to, essentially, andrews and so we had had a house here before her family's from here, my family's from Indiana, so I had no real local ties other than her family, but we were able to move some of our stuff that we had left behind.

Joshua Burch: 45:12

We bought a house before we left, which was pretty difficult, to be honest, just because you have to buy the house site unseen, you're hoping that your realtors is showing you everything and maybe that was a little bit of a disappointment once you got here. But you just kind of make it work, which is one of those flexibility keys that you learn in the military that you really have to lean on when you get out, just being flexible with the situation, understanding that maybe this isn't permanent, which made it a lot easier. But yet, in general, I would say we were in place and happy and selects, very happy and living our normal lives within about 60 days Once our stuff got here. I mean, I think that actually took longer than anything. I'm pretty sure that's four months before things were actually right.

Cheryl Cross: 46:01

Right, there's a lot of logistics involved in an overseas moved in the military, leading the military. Brandy Brickler is someone I've interviewed and she's a vet and a former mill spouse and a mortgage expert and she really underscored the importance of having that job offer if your name is on that mortgage. So, as a career transition expert, I never go into finances, but this is the one place I do talk because I've had, as a recruiter, people reaching out to me and maybe they've gotten a contingent offer for a contract that hasn't quite been funded. So it's not really an offer offer and the mortgage lender and the company will know that. But they need a job. They need a job with a paycheck and they have to show pay stubs, they have to show continuous employment because of that loan and that's tough when you're dealing with all of these things. So I'm glad it was seamless. Well, I'm glad it was a good opportunity.

Cheryl Cross: 46:56

I found you through LinkedIn. You made a post that really got my attention and so I stalked Josh and said hey, I have a podcast, I want to interview you. You talked about a missed opportunity. Now we're going to shift over from relocation and starting a job to now how you might realize opportunity in your network. I don't want to say too much. Why don't you take the mic and tell us what I'm meaning?

Joshua Burch: 47:20

Yeah. So, like I said, when I left the military, I had a really great opportunity. The company brought me on before even left and I was making decent money. And about a year later I was reached out to and asked if I would be interested in a different position. And that was a minor paybomb but was more in the direction of what I wanted to do, and I decided, yeah, I was going to take this role, and so I started going through the clearance back ground check process, which is something that military members are probably familiar with. But it's a different process when you get on the outside and it can actually take quite a while if you aren't actively holding a clearance with the department that you're going to.

Joshua Burch: 48:09

So I was about four months into that and I got to the final, like the finish line, and I knew that I was within a few weeks of when I would be completely ready to roll and I'd be able to move from old position to new position. And I got a phone call or a LinkedIn message one of the two, I believe it was phone call and they said hey, we really like what you have in your resume, we really like your LinkedIn profile, we really like to talk to you about a new position that was significantly. It was a significant paybomb and it was exactly what I wanted to do. It would be a role where I could really make a difference and manage a team and really gain a ton of skills that would have been super valuable on the outside. But what I ended up doing is committing to the job that I had already accepted and said, okay, like I've already got four months into this, waiting this long, I kind of became loyal to the position that I was moving into. So when I think that we first linked up, it was because I posted on Mike's page about how I had not accepted a phone call or or a message on LinkedIn One of the two where they had asked me if I'd be interested in looking into this position and it was a really great opportunity and I'd kind of become loyal to the job that I already committed to for the last four months waiting on this clearance and said I know that this is a great opportunity Tons of extra money, tons of positives for my career and growth and all that.

Joshua Burch: 49:54

I know that that job could potentially be that, but I'm already loyal to this role that I've waited four months to get the clearance on, and so I don't really need that.

Joshua Burch: 50:03

I guess I'll wait and maybe other opportunities like that will come up in the future. And looking back at it now, I kind of realized that I should have accepted the phone call and I think that's a transition thing that a lot of military members don't 100% understand, because when you're in the military you know your career path Generally. You're probably going to fill one of two or three roles at each rank and you're going to keep transitioning up through the standard process that everyone has. You're borrowing this stripe from whoever had it on before you, whereas in the civilian world you need to be prepared to accept any opportunity that comes your way or the very least entertain it so that you can understand what's out there, what your value is and whether or not you're progressing your skillset in the right way to go up that ladder, because no one's going to just move out of their way to let you fill that role.

Cheryl Cross: 51:01

Nope, not in the civilian world. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And it's not. You know, tooth and nail fight either, but it is a whole different dance. You know. I want to say something to you, just as an advocate and as a recruiter. First off, thank you for being loyal to your company. If I were representing that company, I would know that the time and energy and we call that candidate attraction and you know, pre hire attraction and retention. So when we go over and above as people representing companies to folks like you, the fact that you're honoring that speaks volumes about you as a person and your character.

Cheryl Cross: 51:38

You saying I shoulda, coulda, woulda for a phone call you didn't take, I mean I just want to give you a big hug and say who knows what that could have been. It could have just been a conversation. Don't shoulda, coulda, woulda yourself into oblivion, but do have the conversation. You're right, know that even though you are an offer stage with another company or you know again, I say this to a lot of people sometimes those offers aren't funded. Depending on if you're going into a government contracting situation, they're going to be borrowing your resume to put in for the RFP, the request for proposal, so that they can show that they can staff whatever it is that they're asking them to do. So that's an offer, but it's contingent on that award. So don't go thinking that that's a job, and certainly I would be very hesitant to give a contingent offer on award to someone coming from Germany or Italy or UK or anywhere in the Middle East or anywhere else, even Asia.

Cheryl Cross: 52:34

So you need a job, job, get the job, get the get the sure thing, and I know you're going to hear this in your TAPS classes Get the job, just get the job. The first job is the most important job. You know, have that something that you're anchored in? Tell me, have you stayed in that job, the one that you kept, or have you moved on it?

Joshua Burch: 52:55

Yeah, I have Okay. Yeah, so I've been there for about six months ish and it's been great. I've learned a lot of skills that I otherwise would not have, just because the roles are different between the two. But it hasn't been exactly what I wanted and I think that over time I'll probably find other positions that maybe do fit better, and I think that's one of the great things about moving away from the services that you have the flexibility and that opportunity to kind of do what you think is best for your situation.

Joshua Burch: 53:36

And so yeah, I think that, yeah, exactly, I'm kind of learning as I go. You're learning a new environment, for sure, exactly, and every corporation.

Cheryl Cross: 53:46

Every company is a new environment. Just so you know, just because it's civilian doesn't mean it's all cookie cutter. It's not so many different shades of purple orange gray in every corporation. It could be a great culture. It could be a wonderful working environment.

Cheryl Cross: 54:02

I've had people that move here to Hawaii. They're like I love to surf. I'm here for the to be a waterman or a water woman, I don't care what job I'll go. Stuff envelopes in the corner as long as I can be in Hawaii. So you know, it just depends. You know, what are you anchoring yourself in, is it? You know your wife's job was an anchor for you. You needed to look at something that was either remote or in that location. Now, DC Metro is not a hard place to find a job, right, but you are. You're. You're dealing with some of the biggest military talent in in the US. You know that's one of the most competitive places. Good for you, though you could demand a higher salary, and I hope that that's something that you were able to do to tell me I'm going to point in a corner here, because this is not something we talked about how comfortable were you negotiating a salary?

Joshua Burch: 54:51

Yeah, I mean I would say I wasn't uncomfortable, but it's. It's kind of hard coming from a position of almost not knowing. It's hard to judge your value when you go to that first interview. So I know generally what this role makes. If I can go on blast or something like that, I can look up and say, ok, what does a project manager make? Ok, cool, like, project managers generally make about this much. And so when I go to negotiate a salary I can say, hey, I want this amount or that amount based on glass door. But when they say, ok, well, why do you think that you are worth that? Right, because I have a PM degree question mark. I guess I don't really know what. I don't really. I didn't really understand the lingo of how to sell myself on that, on that elevated salary, and I think that's another huge thing coming out of the military that they don't exactly teach you, and I think it's because you would never be in a situation where you needed that.

Cheryl Cross: 55:54

Exactly Again, structured career environment there's. Your job postings are all listed by rank and level, even in the GS world. I just want to brag a little bit. I told you I wasn't going to talk about books, but this is my next book and it's called Unlocking your Worth. It'll be coming out in 2024. And maybe, for those of you who are listening, it's already out on Amazon.

Cheryl Cross: 56:16

Unlocking your worth is not something that is just for the folks mid-leaving the military, it's for everybody, salary negotiation. They don't teach this in school unless you go to a even if they teach you in a fancy MBA program, I mean they're teaching you to negotiate to get what you want, but not necessarily for a salary. So salary negotiation is a really tertiary part of negotiation. And, yes, you negotiate every day. You negotiate with your spouses, with your children, with your coworkers, with the people in your command, with the people at the grocery store.

Cheryl Cross: 56:48

We're constantly negotiating, but different types of transactional negotiations are easier than some. It's probably pretty easy for you, josh, to go buy a house, a car, but when it comes to negotiating for you, unlocking that worth, it's tough and it's tough for everybody. So this means a lot of introspection, a lot of research, which it sounds like you did, especially on the location you were going to, and looking at these as variables. Tell me and again, I haven't pre-asked you these, so I call them anchors what were you anchored in other than location for your job when you accepted that job? What were you anchored in? And I'm just going to let you go freeform and see what comes out.

Joshua Burch: 57:31

Yeah. So anybody that's spent any time with me in the military knows that my statement was always flexibility is the key to airpower. So for me, an anchor isn't something that I really ever thought about other than my wife's job, because we knew that we had that position and that would be something we had to commit to. It was a role where we knew that she was going to make more and have more opportunity from that job than we would anywhere else. So that was really the anchoring factor. And then I guess the other one would be home cost.

Joshua Burch: 58:05

So, like you know what you need to make, so you know that I need to have a roof over my head.

Joshua Burch: 58:10

I know I need to make at least enough to pay for that and my groceries and my car bill, my insurance, all those things, those things for the most part. But otherwise I try to live a pretty flexible life. I try to take opportunity when it comes, and that's part of what's so funny about what I post on Mike's pages Is the one time where I said I'm locked into this, I'm going to be loyal to this. But yeah, I'm pretty flexible in my day to day. I try to take things as they go and I think it makes and really made this transition a little bit easier on me than maybe had I been so dead set that, like I have to have this job in this location at this pay, I have to do this role. I needed all these things. Instead of doing that, I kind of said, okay, these are my absolute needs and everything else will probably fall into place if I'm flexible and take advantage of the opportunities when I come my way.

Cheryl Cross: 59:10

I see two things happening. And people who have happy careers they're either flexible or they're incredibly confident in knowing what they want. Now, confidence and bravado are not something that I encourage. Being confident is great, being overconfident is annoying and that doesn't make you a great team player, but being confident in knowing what you want during conversation. So let's back up when you talked about the salary and again just know, blanket statement ain't nobody good at it. I'm an expert, wrote a book, I've had to negotiate salaries. I get nervous, it's tough.

Cheryl Cross: 59:46

But what I want to bring up is we have the opportunity to really like blow the doors open on this If you have a chance to get a conversation with a recruiter before your interview. So let's break this down. So you're contacted by a company or you apply to a company and then you have usually what's called a screening interview, screening interview or a recruiter interview. So you're talking to a professional talent acquisition professional. They're either assisting the recruiter or they are the recruiter. Generally unless it's a really small company you're not talking to a hiring manager. So a hiring manager is somebody who says yes, no, yes, I don't want that person. I do want that person. Okay, we need to talk to five more people. The recruiter is really just holding the hands between you and the company to try and be your concierge. So what is not happening, I see, in this community is because you're so excited that you got the interview that you're not asking the right questions. And I fully, fully, fully, fully empower you all to have the conversation about salary and as a consultant, I try and teach recruiting teams and companies to ask this conversation. This is where it should roll. So, josh, nice to meet you.

Cheryl Cross: 1:00:59

I'm Cheryl Cross. I represent ABC Company. I just want to let you know we're going to have an hour full of conversation. I've got to get some housekeeping things done just for OFCCP guidelines. But I want you to know that at the end of this conversation, you and I we're going to have a conversation about salary. So I want you to be prepared. And then we'll go and we'll say do you have a clearance? Who holds your clearance? Is it scattered castles? Is it this? Is it this? Is it that you know we get through all the requisite risk and reward questions I call them. But if you have the conversation about this in the first conversation, you've made a connection with a recruiter.

Cheryl Cross: 1:01:37

Let's say that you have $120,000 in your mind as a salary for your location and they say what are your salary expectations? I'm looking in the $110,000, $120,000 range. I mean the lowest I'd be willing to go is this and I'm kind of this is my sweet spot. Hopefully you can have that conversation Now. Don't go below your sweet spot. Don't just say I'll take whatever you got. I don't know how much is it. Don't do that. Figure out what your worth is. Give a range that's $5,000 to $10,000 and then wait for their response. Now here's the key, friends If they don't respond to you and you go through all these hiring scenarios and then they say well, bob, john, suzy and Jane and all these people really loved you, but we can't pay $120,000. We're only going to give you a job for 80,000.

Cheryl Cross: 1:02:28

That's where everyone fails. Because your expectations have been heightened, the company has wasted time. You know in your mind you're not probably going to take that because that's so far below what you want, even your lowest denominator. And to me that's where we fail. So, as candidates, I want to empower you to say I'm looking. If it doesn't come up, hey, can we talk about my salary expectations at this point and if so, can I give them to you? Because and don't say I don't want this to be a waste of time you don't want that, but I do want to make a connection with your company. But salary is important for me because of the area I'm going to be living. DC Metro is very expensive, Honolulu is very expensive, so having a rationale for your anchor is very possible. And if they don't be weary, just be weary If they're not willing.

Cheryl Cross: 1:03:19

And many states just so you know, josh, and to the public, sorry I'm going off on this, this is a big deal. We've been fighting for this for years. A lot of states are. Finally it's mandated that they put salary ranges in their job descriptions, so that you have an idea. Now a lot of companies are gaming it. They're like, oh yeah, state, you want me to do this, I'm going to give $100,000 range. And you're like, pfft, not great. So if you have a job that's $100,000 to $170,000 in a range, what are you going to ask for? $170,000? I mean, come on, yeah. And the recruiter is going to be like, really Well, this job really only pays like $120,000. You know it's getting to that conversation as a bit of a dance, but I want you to try and do it as early as possible.

Cheryl Cross: 1:04:05

What I don't like is when companies come back trying to low ball you knowing what your range is. That conversation should have stopped, knowing that they can't come to that level. Or if you've told them hey, I'm pretty flexible on my salary, this is what I want, but I'd be open to hearing what you're offering, then the door is open. But if you're really tied to that number because you've got to live in that DC Metro Capital Region, yeah, so be be known, I've said the same thing five times, but I want you to know that that's an empowering thing to do. Hey, I appreciate you sharing your story. I asked this from everybody, so let's see if I can get this straight. If you knew then what you knew now, which is only a few months outside of the military, what would it be?

Joshua Burch: 1:04:54

If I knew then what I knew now, I would say that it would be understanding that jobs are looking for skills and not experience. You can have a lot of really, really great experience. I did some really awesome stuff while I was in the military, but that does not always transition to skill sets that are required in the workforce. So if you are really great at leading people, that's awesome. There's a lot of really really great leaders in the civilian world. There may not be as many super proficient Java programmers or there may not be as many really skilled HVAC technicians or whatever it may be. Skills matter a lot on the civilian side and I would have probably developed more of those skills on my exit the year or two leading up to it. I think we talked about it before this that those three years really should be right before you get out should be spent developing skills.

Joshua Burch: 1:06:08

Experience is great. Networking is great. Anyone on your LinkedIn profile list is probably not going to get you a job. They might be able to help point you in the direction of open positions, but they're probably not going to hire you on the spot. Having really strong skills that are marketable on the outside not only will significantly improve salary potential. I've seen that directly but also it'll open up roles to you that you otherwise there was. There's no opportunity for Josh.

Cheryl Cross: 1:06:37

I want to say thank you so much for being with me on this segment. Your story is valuable and the things you shared today especially. I like what you said about being skills-based and shoulda, coulda, woulda, had we had the opportunity to do things better. Do give yourself a little grace, but know that you also have the chance to go and get those skills right. Your career is going to be awesome. The military has given you incredible opportunities, but it's you that has to turn the tides on where you go, so good luck with that. It's been a real honor and pleasure to see you.

Cheryl Cross: 1:07:12

I'm going to wrap things up for this segment and thank you, the listener. If you're listening on YouTube, hit that like and subscribe button. If you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe. We have new episodes coming out all the time. I'm also interested in featuring you as a guest. You can go to X the letter X, changepodcastdotcom and fill out the guest release form. Thanks so much, Josh. I'll be checking you out and watching you on LinkedIn and, for those of you listening, we're going to keep on going with somebody who's at least five years out, as these transition stories matter. See you in a bit . And we're back. This is the last segment of our hour and I love the five plus year veterans. They have kind of figured things out, even though all of you have told me, transition is an experience that you go for many years, not just one year, not just five years. And today's guest is about seven years out of the US Air Force. Her name is Sam Gassman. Hi, Sam, thanks so much for being with us today.

Sam Gassman: 1:08:29

Hi, Cheryl, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.

Cheryl Cross: 1:08:32

I've been following you on LinkedIn and I saw that you have made a tremendous shift in your career. A few of them.

Sam Gassman: 1:08:39

A few of them a few.

Cheryl Cross: 1:08:41

You followed a path, but I want you to talk a little bit about where you're at right now and why you've chosen to maybe lean more into your passions.

Sam Gassman: 1:08:50

Sure thanks. So yes, as you mentioned, I went through several different kind of career pivots. I stay, if you think of it, like in terms of concentric circles. I kind of stayed close to my comfort area for the first like year or so, and then, as I've gotten further away from the military, I've kind of branched out further and further. Ultimately, I'm still somewhat in a comfort zone because I'm still working for a defense contractor. 20% of our company is made up of veterans and we support the warfighter through our products.

Sam Gassman: 1:09:19

But in terms of the job that I'm doing, which is communications, that is a complete departure from what I did in the military.

Sam Gassman: 1:09:25

Altogether, I served as a Navigator when I was in the Air Force and, as many folks know, there's just no such thing as that position out in the civilian world aircraft that you fly on to go from coast to coast.

Sam Gassman: 1:09:39

They don't have NAVS, they have GPS, and so my challenge was figuring out how to take those other skills that I had accumulated in the military from being a flight commander and being an executive officer, and trying to translate that to a position that I could work into and enjoy.

Sam Gassman: 1:09:56

And so the way that I landed into comms was I had a realization that the work that I was doing at that time, which was in human resources, it was part of what I wanted to do. It was helping people, which I'm very passionate about, but it was leaving out a big part of my personality, which is more on the creative side. And so I wanted to find a position where I could be creative in my everyday work, which would include writing and storytelling, and somehow make a career out of that. And I landed on the communications department in my company, and it has just proven to be a great way to one meet fellow creatives, because almost everyone I work with is a novelist, a blogger, a videographer, a photographer, but then also apply that passion that I have for writing into my everyday job.

Cheryl Cross: 1:10:43

So, when you approach that conversation within your organization, what did that sound like? Did you go home and really think what you wanted to do, or was it explored as a team? Walk us through that.

Sam Gassman: 1:10:54

Yeah, well, when I started thinking about making that switch, I reached out to. I had actually been in contact with some of my communications colleagues from my position in HR, so I kind of knew who they were and I'd worked with them a little bit and I had exploratory calls with them to learn more about what their job looked like. And then I also volunteered to write for our company magazine. The magazine isn't exclusively written by communications professionals. They welcome other employees to submit and write stories. And so I raised my hand and I said hey, if you guys need more writers, I'm happy to contribute. Which was beneficial for a multitude of reasons.

Sam Gassman: 1:11:31

Is, one they got to know who I was, and so I had someone to vouch for me when I went to go and apply for a job, right, you know. Two, I got a kind of behind the scenes peak into what the job entailed. And I also, three, got to learn more about the style of the company magazine and understand what that looks like from a writer's perspective. So I felt that that was really important, to make those introductions and to show them that I could be valuable without even being in their organization yet. So when it came time to interview, I had people who were already on my side, who could speak to my work, even though I didn't have direct work experience in Kansia.

Cheryl Cross: 1:12:10

We talk about sponsors, champions and advocates in the workplace, and this is a great example. Thank you, Sam. I did not tee her up for this. This is just all organic. But you think, as you're transitioning out of the military or going through a transition, that you have to get these people to get you the job. Once the job is gotten, or once the jobs are gotten, you still have to continue this process. You just do it internally. The whole reason this recording studio was created is that I was asked by my employer to do a voiceover for a learning module, so they sent me a microphone. I took the microphone out of the box. It broke.

Cheryl Cross: 1:12:48

I bought my own and then I decided I needed, you know, tiles on the wall. It just grew so and then I started doing book narration, so you know, and when they learned that I really had a recording suite, they were like, would you like to do more? I was like, yes, I would. So I was able to exercise my passions within my corporate job and not give up my job.

Cheryl Cross: 1:13:08

job, it was just an adjunct to it. So thanks for sharing that story. You know, if you have any challenges or hiccups, or I wish I would have known then what I know now, could you share a few of those nuggets for us? Is there anything that comes up?

Sam Gassman: 1:13:26

Yeah, sure, I think the biggest thing was just understanding that you're not going to get it right. The first time. I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as veterans because we're so disciplined and we want to get things done. Like transition is almost like a check the box activity Okay, I've got my job, I'm done. And that's just not the case.

Sam Gassman: 1:13:46

My first job out of the military I was terrible at, I'm sure. As an employee I was completely insufferable. I just wasn't mentally transitioned. I hadn't made any of those mindset shifts. It was all about, like you know, oh well, this is what I did in the military and my personality and my ego were so still intimately intertwined with who I was in the military, my rank, my position, everything that I did that I hadn't yet figured out who Sam was, irrespective of the grade and the rank that I had before. So and I didn't get it right at all I my first job, I completely failed that.

Sam Gassman: 1:14:23

I was a contractor working on a base. I thought that again, being as close to the mission as possible within my comfort zone would be a good step for me to kind of gradually, you know, get away from the military. But it ended up being very challenging because I found myself on the outside looking in to an organization that I was so close to, because as a contractor, you know you're treated differently, that nobody knew that I had just stepped out of the uniform, you know, the day before, and so for me it was really hard not being in the unit but being part of the organization, if that makes sense, Like all the you know the morale events that they did. You know contractors couldn't go to, you can't get a coin as a contractor, you can't participate in some of the things, and so and I wasn't, you know, wasn't wearing the uniform anymore, and so it was just, it was too much and I needed a better break from the military, and so but it was really it was a very dramatic feeling at the time to be like, oh my gosh, I messed this up and I've only been to this job for six months. How could I mess this up so badly?

Sam Gassman: 1:15:30

Because again, to me it was like, oh, transition, check, I've got my new job and you know that's the way we go, but it's so much more than that. It's so much more than finding that job, and even when you find a job, you're, you know, you love. It's still more than that position. It's what does your day-to-day life look like? How do you feel? You know, have you made that mental switch from military to civilian? Have you learned your company culture and how does it differ from what you're used to?

Sam Gassman: 1:15:57

One of the challenges I faced as a manager in HR was how do you hold people accountable if you don't have the disciplinary tools that we have in the military? How do you influence people when you're not in a position of authority? How do you use that peer-to-peer influence? How do you get people to do what they're supposed to do without the threat of a letter of reprimand? So there's I think veterans are great at leadership, we just. But there's a lot of differences that we need to be cognizant of when we make that switch to the civilian workforce and we make, we put so much pressure on ourselves to just know it right when we get there, and that's just not realistic. So we need to have realistic expectations of ourselves and to understand that you're going to continue to grow even after you get that position, and that that's okay and it should be expected.

Cheryl Cross: 1:16:45

Would you say that maybe slowing down, taking a break in between that first job, I mean that's not affordable for some folks, especially the enlisted. I mean I don't want to say rank, but it's just not affordable for some people. They're they're moving. I just talked to three people in a row that were over in Europe. They're moving back to the mainland. They're having real difficulty figuring out where they want to live so they can point their relocation in that direction. A job is a big part of that. Breaks are just not even part of the process. May I ask a question how many times did you move around in the military base to base? Did you get moved around a lot or?

Sam Gassman: 1:17:26

Yeah, I started my career at Randolph for training the first part of my training, and then I did additional training in Little Rock, arkansas, for six months, albuquerque, new Mexico, for six months, survival training up in Washington state and then my first you know, operational move, if you will, was to Okinawa, japan, where I was for three years. And then I moved to Hurlbert Field, florida, and then I got out when I was in Florida, but then I married a military guy and we got moved across the country to LA and then over to Texas, over to Northern California, over to South Carolina and now we're down here in Alabama. So we have been all over the place.

Cheryl Cross: 1:18:05

Everywhere. Well, thank you for your support as a military spouse and, of course, as a veteran. We're recording this and this is going to last into all eternity. I never talk about dates, but veteran's day is coming up, so thank you for your support. Thank you, you are with those moves.

Cheryl Cross: 1:18:22

I like people who move a lot because growing up in Las Vegas, I went to a high school right near Nellis Air Force Base. I had lived in two homes in one city. My whole childhood and I met friends my age that had been to 15 different places by the time that they were 16 years old, and I thought it was so amazing. You've been to Germany, you've been to Italy, you've been to this? You've been to all these wild places. You've lived in how many states? 17?, oh my gosh, I'm being facetious, but I just thought. And they were like you've only lived in two houses, so it's always greener on the other side. Given the fact that you've moved so much and that you are a very flexible and fungible person fungible meaning you're able to absorb information and feed it back quickly do you think that that has helped you? Do you think that just the sheer fact of having to pick up and go has helped you at all in the workspace.

Sam Gassman: 1:19:19

Yeah, I think so because, as I've been moving around the country, I've also been moving jobs, disciplines, functions, you name it.

Sam Gassman: 1:19:27

I've almost been PCS-ing on a similar timetable as when I was in the military in terms of different jobs and different bosses. And so, yes, I think adaptability is absolutely a very beneficial skill to have, and one that is kind of inherent to military members because of how often we move. The only thing I would say with that is, because we're so adaptable, it's easy to lose yourself and to give into the culture, the pressure, the opinions and views of whatever organization you're in and accept that as your normal. And so I think it's important for veterans to really think about what they value, and not what they have been told to value, but really dig deep and think about it and say, irrespective of my time in the military, what is it that I personally want? Because now you have an opportunity to pursue that.

Sam Gassman: 1:20:19

Before we signed up to serve and we put service before self and that was what was expected, but now you have this ability to pursue what you want to do. And so, with a word of caution, just be careful that you're not being too adaptable and that you are considering truly what you want and what values you hold near and dear, and sometimes if they're different from what you had in the military, then that's fine. But you just need to recognize that and ensure that you're staying true to yourself as you're trying to navigate this transition.

Cheryl Cross: 1:20:52

It's true there's a lot of research. Duke's Fuqua School of Business, the Veteran Transition Research Lab, came out with something recently about agenticism? Agentic meaning that looking at people coming from the military as someone they can take advantage of. So, because of the incredible processes that you've learned and that you're willing to do so many things, this means in the workplace a lot of mishandling, so you're put in more hazardous positions. You are looked at to be well. You work more, you'll work harder. You don't give pushback because you're used to being pushed and that doesn't bode well for folks. And you talk a lot about mind mindfulness, mind shifting and I love that. You're bringing it personal. And, for those of you who are interested, Dr. Matt Stanley was interviewed on this show. You can find him in another episode. You were talking about passions and this is why I reached out to you. Is that you're exploring your passions? What are you doing right now? What are you? And I wanna hear why you're doing it and why you're talking so much to the military transition community.

Sam Gassman: 1:22:03

Thank you. Well, my full-time job is I work internal comms for a defense contractor and part of that is creating resources and tools for different groups within our company, the largest of which is veterans. So I'm really happy when I get to work on those types of materials. But in terms of what I'm doing outside of my full-time job, I've been writing on LinkedIn quite a bit. I started a few months ago, right before I went out on maternity leave, because there's nothing like mat leave to pick up something completely new, because it's not like you're busy. But I just decided I was like well, I keep hearing that LinkedIn can be a really valuable tool and I had experimented a little bit with it in the past, but I never really dedicated much time to it.

Sam Gassman: 1:22:48

And I started writing on it a few months ago and noticed that people started to really resonate with the things that I had to say regarding the military transition. I spoke quite openly about my experiences when I first left and the transition that I still am undergoing currently in my role now. And the more I started writing, the more I started to realize that people valued it and they found it useful and it was helping people. I got a message from someone who said that it had changed their whole perspective on the transition and how they were so concerned that they just had to find a job. They were under the gun to find a job, pressure, pressure, pressure and that they thought that once that was done, they could just relax.

Sam Gassman: 1:23:31

And they realized that, well, maybe not, maybe it's not just the job, and I think giving people that sense of normalcy and showing them that all the things you're feeling are common to many people this feeling of isolation, this feeling of uncertainty, of I don't know what I want to be when I grow up, because all I've done is this that's a completely normal feeling, and talking about it openly, I think has just been. It's been validating for people to see someone talk about it, and that transparency and being candid with those experiences I think has really helped, and so I've just kept doing it. I mean, I write almost every day on the platform sharing different stories. It's not all veteran related. I do share a couple of stories from being a mom or other things as well, but for the most part, I feel like I'm trying to help those who are currently in this situation or even if they are a few years removed to just bring that normality to their emotions and to give them some validity in what they're feeling.

Cheryl Cross: 1:24:36

Well, it's 100 percent why you're here. Thank you so much. I have in Hawaii, where I sit and live, is called chicken skin or goosebumps. I get goosebumps when you were talking about that, thank you. The voices of those transitioning, no matter how many years it's been, are so important, and you brought up something that I want to call imposter syndrome. Do you have you thought about that being labeled as that? That's a big term out in the psychology field right now it's actually hitting the mainstream. Did you feel any imposter syndrome when you were transitioning out in any of your roles?

Sam Gassman: 1:25:11

Every, every single one of them. Yes, my first role was as a project manager. That's what I was hired for. I had some project management experience in the military, but it was nothing like what my company did or even like the certification you can get. I felt like an imposter at that point.

Sam Gassman: 1:25:27

When I joined human resources, I had no HR experience whatsoever. I joined that organization because I wanted to be closer to people and helping people, but I learned that within the field of HR, there are many disciplines in which I had no experience, like compensation, employee relations, recruiting, like it's. It's huge, and I I knew a little bit, just based on, like you know, personal experience. But I was nowhere near a practitioner and so you know, managing HR processes was a very steep learning curve for me. And then even within communications, I'm fortunate insofar as I have a passion for writing. I think I'm pretty good at it.

Sam Gassman: 1:26:05

But I've only been in comms for three years, and when I was promoted to my manager role, I was very keenly aware of the fact that there were people who competed and didn't get it, who have been in communications for three times, four times, five times longer than I have, and when I look around my organization.

Sam Gassman: 1:26:24

You know those who are in these positions. They tend to be a bit older than me, they tend to have more experience than me and so, yeah, absolutely I, I struggle with that on a regular basis, but I guess, when I think about it, it's like they wouldn't have hired me if they didn't think I could do it, and so they must have seen something. If those experienced people that I'm worried about have seen something in me that tells them that I can perform at this level and in this role, then I trust their, their perspective and their opinion. So it's difficult to combat, but I think it's just a matter of knowing your own worth and your own value and knowing what those are outside of the military, and really you know digging into yourself to understand what that is.

Cheryl Cross: 1:27:06

And giving yourself some grace. Yes, every new position. And then you know, we all suffer from high drivers, people who are driving and grinding.

Cheryl Cross: 1:27:15

We're all perfectionists on some level and we are our own worst critics. And it's tough, it's really tough. We want to succeed and I was. I was redirected by a Marine Corps officer, Art Behnke. He's been a guest and he's a wonderful man. But I said something on the podcast and he said Cheryl, please don't say the word failure. They didn't fail by leaving their job. That's 70, some odd percent that you keep quoting. Don't call it failure. And I kept it in the show because he's right. I keep talking about it because he's right. Yeah, you know it's,

Cheryl Cross: 1:27:53

this is what this is all about is giving yourself permission to hear these stories so that you can craft your own plan. And if you are holding yourself to an impossible standard, well, we also have mental health people that are going to be coming on and talking about that and as an HR person, I've seen that fall out. You know, hopefully, within an organization, you have great, you know, erp systems. There's wonderful employee relations programs that are helping the people. But if you're not, you know, reach out to your veteran community, reach out to some of those champions and those sponsors and those advocates and those mentors that you have, because you do not need to navigate this alone, and, of course, we always need to talk about the crisis lines that are available. We'll put all those things in the chat or actually in the comments, whatever platform you're listening to. You can also find them on my website. So, Sam, you go by Samantha on LinkedIn, Samantha Gassman, and I love that you write. Don't call me Samantha, it only means that I'm in trouble.

Sam Gassman: 1:28:54

Yes.

Cheryl Cross: 1:28:56

If somebody wanted to follow you, would they be able to find you on LinkedIn until you write more books or create some podcast or do a website. How would somebody follow your writing?

Sam Gassman: 1:29:07

Thanks, yes, they can find me on LinkedIn under Samantha Gassman, although please call me Sam and then I do have a website, samanthegassmandotcom. Currently I'm using that to showcase my children's picture books that I wrote and came out last year.

Cheryl Cross: 1:29:21

Well, I see a podcast in your future and I think you should call it. Just call me, Sam. You're awesome. Thank you so much for being here. You've really rounded off this hour for our listeners and for me. It's a pleasure, and I want to thank you so much for being open to this. I know you're a hot star on the podcast network. You've already been featured on what was it? Seven Eagle and then William Pugh, was it, that interviewed you, so you can find Samantha or Sam Gassman on many portals. I'm looking forward to seeing you grow as you continue your veteran journey, now as a military spouse and as a mom. Congratulations on all you're doing and thank you so much for sharing this valuable resources and information. I hope to have you back. Thank you, I appreciate that, Cheryl. All right, so we're going to sign off for now. This is the end of this part of the segment and we'll do a wrap up for the whole show. I hope that you're listening to all of the segments. Every single voice that we have, including our experts, are so valuable to you. It's been a great journey for me. Thank you so much for being involved. This is the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour. I am your host, Cheryl Cross, and I'm saying bye for now and that is a wrap.

Cheryl Cross: 1:30:35

Episode 5 is In the Can and it's remarkable how much we've done in such a short period of time. We have so many voices ahead of us. I think we're at 20 now, but you know what? We've got lots of guests coming up. First, I want to say thank you to the guests on this episode Jai Salters of Act Now Education, Joshua Birch, our one-year veteran, Sam Gassman, our five-year veteran, and our very special guest, the OG for Veteran- Type Podcast, Lori Norris, and you can check out her Lessons Learned for Vets on any of the popular podcast platforms. I'm your host, Cheryl Cross, and I just wanted to sign off with my usual don't forget, if you're out looking for a job, wherever you are in your transition or if you've already transitioned, I want you to remember these things. You are strong, you are brave, you are skilled and you are trained, and those are all things that the civilian workforce needs. Until we see each other again, I'm just going to sign off and say bye for now.