EP 6: Overcoming Challenges in the Military-to-Civilian Career Transition: Stories of Resilience

Episode 6: Overcoming Challenges in the Military-to-Civilian Career Transition: Stories of Resilience featuring, Kyle Smet, Brett Greene, Eric Dostie and Darrell Williams.
Our goal is to lift the voices of 100 transitioning military. 

In the "Soup"

Kyle Smet, shares his first-hand experiences as an Airman, he shares it's not only about his checklist and resume tailoring, but the personal growth and resilience that comes with Mil2Civ transition.  He talks about the complexities choosing the right job 'because he values his sleep.'  Kyle joins in on a spirited conversation regarding disabilities, disclosures and impacts and a compelling  conversation on how he's seen change in the attitudes towards PTSD and mental health in his 20+ years in the military. 

"Expert"

Given our topic of overcoming challenges and sharing stories of resilience, we chose Brett Greene, an ADHD counselor, advocate and executive coach in the tech industry.  Brett dives deeper into ADHD and neurodivergence in the workplace against neuro-typical expectations. Topics like understanding ADHD, masking, and imposter syndrome in the civilian workforce.  Do you disclose? Do you wait until you get the job? Brett transverses what BRG's are in organizations and how to find a company that you align with, if you identify as being neurodivergent. 

"1+ Year Vet"

Eric Dostie had a dream job and faced a lay-off within his first two years post-military.  He explores ways to prepare better for a bad outcome.  He  speaks openly about the the importance of having a plan B, and how his military experience equipped him to handle the challenge. He talks honestly about finding his community- or his 'tribe' and  refine and define his purpose, which is to continue the missi

If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour, let us know. Go to www.xchangepodcast.com and click connect. A producer will read your request and get back to you. Thanks for your support!

Learn more about host, Cheryl Cross and her book, "CIVILIAN MISSION: The 3-Year Guide for Military Professionals Planning Civilian Careers" available for order online.

Transcript

00:00 Justin Cruz – Show Open: Thanks for listening to the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour. One hour of tips from experts and real stories from people just like you. For those thinking about what lies ahead, for those going through the job search and those who have paved the way to their next career after the military. These professionals are dedicated to helping you move forward successfully to the next phase of your career after the military. Welcome to X CHANGE.

Cheryl 

Welcome to the show. I'm excited to offer you somebody who is truly going through the soup. He left military service just a few weeks ago and only took about a month of terminal leave and he's here to share his transition story with you. I'd like to introduce you to Kyle Smedt. Hi Kyle, how are you doing today?

Kyle Smet 

Hey Cheryl, very well, how are you doing?

Cheryl 

I'm good. I'm excited to talk to you. I found you on LinkedIn. You were participating in some dialogue and I thought you had a very interesting story. Why don't you start by telling us how this transition has been for you.

Kyle Smet 

Sure. So quick background. I've been in for about 24 years, and I think the first step with anybody's transition is, is it time to retire? Some folks make that decision for themselves, other folks kind of have that decision forced on them. But really what I wanted to do was to make sure that I own that decision, and I was on my own timeline. So once I made that decision, then it was time to kind of move out and then do the things that everybody tells you to do.

When I made the decision to retire, the first thing I did was I talked to everybody. Okay, what should I do? And I kind of formed a checklist in my mind of the things that I wanted to do. By the time I had made the decision to retire, which was years before my retirement date, everybody's like, you're too late. Oh my gosh, you should have done this, and this. So you kind of immediately go into panic mode. Then you take a step back and kind of draw out a calendar and a timeline and you think, okay, I think I've got this.

So I made the decision to retire about a year and a half before my actual retirement date. Once I made that decision, then I kind of tried to outline some of the big things that I needed to do. And the first one that was important to me was SkillBridge. it's a congressionally mandated program that an active duty service member can essentially go off into industry for a couple of months.

Cheryl 

Okay.

Kyle Smet 

This is on the military's dime, right? So you're not getting paid by that vendor partner or Industry member really this is your opportunity to learn about industry outside of the military But to me that was second to just the time that you have not a work on your resume to work on your LinkedIn To start to network around so that was hugely important. So for me the administrative piece of separating was fairly

benign, you know, with a couple of checklists here and there, but a lot of it is mental prep because what you're thinking about, especially if you have a family, is what's next. If you have to provide for your family, you can't afford just to kind of wing it. You have to have a pretty solid plan. And I know a lot of military members are planners, right? You know, that's kind of how we got to where we are. So for me, it's like, all right, I worked on my resume. So before you're actually off and running with SkillBridge, you have to have

resume and you have to have done a couple of interviews. So I drafted up my resume, which was based off of my military kind of bio, and I gave it to my buddy who was my neighbor who has also recently retired. He's like, yeah, this sucks, but he's like, look, every time you show your resume to somebody, they're going to give you their resume. And that resume is going to be the best resume that ever walked the earth. And yours is going to be the worst. You're going to hear that from everybody. And he was right.

So what I tried to do was take the best pieces of advice that I could from as many folks as I could. And I started to tailor my resume to where I thought it needed to be. So I got rid of a lot of the military vernacular and acronyms, and I tried to civilianize my resume as much as I could. Something else that I heard from SkillBridge that I didn't do was they will tell you, you have got to tailor your resume. Whoever you're actually giving your resume to, you have to make sure that it can.

kind of with what they're looking for. What they don't tell you is that if you're applying for dozens, up to a hundred jobs, how long does it take to tailor that resume? You know, 10 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour. That adds up. So from my experience, this is just what I did. I drafted my resume to where it was kind of tailorable in the mind of the reader without being too generic.

Kyle Smet 

with SkillBridge and I went with the company called, or organization called Hiring Our Heroes, which is aligned with the Chamber of Commerce. It's a nonprofit. So there are a lot of different SkillBridge programs out there for folks who are listening, but this is just the one that was recommended to me and it worked out really well. So you sign up with them and they do resume release day. This is where they take your resume. It's kind of like professional tender and they just put it out into the atmosphere, right? And it's for anybody.

Cheryl 

Mm. Yes.

Kyle Smet 

to take a look and they can shoot you an email or they can call you, it just kind of depends. So I was a little bit more senior than the rest of the cohorts in Skill Bridge. So there was about 120 of us. The majority of those cohorts or folks who were in the program were about the mid-NCO to kind of field grade officer level, captain major type level. I was a colonel. So.

The response wasn't what I expected in that a lot of the industry partners are looking for their cyber folks, for the IT folks, for HR personnel. They weren't really looking for big thinkers with a strategic vision, with a history, all that stuff that's in your resume. They weren't necessarily looking for that. And that doesn't mean that those folks aren't out there looking for senior leaders because they are. But I didn't get as big of a response as I expected from.

hiring our heroes. However, I did get a handful of interviews. Another thing I would offer to anybody listening is to take every interview that's offered to you if you have that time, because it's practice. Even if you're interviewing for a job that you know for a fact you don't want, you may get some other perspective. You may get stumped on a question that you weren't expecting. This is going to prepare you. This is going to thicken your battle armor when you go into the next interview. And by that point, you're going to be more comfortable. You're going to be more natural.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Smet 

And what I found is that organizations have your resume. They know what you've done, but they want to know who you are, because if they're going to be spending time with you in a small room for hours at a time, they want to know that they get along with you, that you're somebody who they can work with. And those are a lot of the intangibles that aren't necessarily reflected on the resume. So to kind of bring out your own natural personality, just practice. Just go out and talk to as many folks as you can. So-

Cheryl 

Yes.

Kyle Smet 

I did a couple of interviews and I was able to align myself with a consulting firm, right, which was comprised of a lot of similarly senior retired officers whose job was to kind of leverage the network that they had while they were in the military and then create new networks in industry. So they would work with industry partners and they would kind of leverage some of the contacts that they had.

Cheryl 

Well, good.

Kyle Smet 

and they were able to consult with a wide variety of these industry partners. So that was a hugely positive experience for me. It was awesome. I really got along with everybody over there. When you have a lot of retired folks get together, the war stories are gonna come out almost immediately. So there was a lot of that, a lot of good natured ribbing. But with some of the downtime,

Cheryl 

Yeah.

Kyle Smet 

that I had, I was able to continue to work on my resume and build my LinkedIn profile. When I first started, when I made that decision that I was gonna retire, I said, I should probably get a LinkedIn account. So I did, and I had the black and white outline icon, and I am retiring in a year type of a thing, and I had 0.0 friends. What I tried to do, especially when I was doing my

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Smet 

cohort with the consulting firm was to continue to make those contacts and to increase the level of people that I was connected to and to use LinkedIn as a resource. This was not the kind of be all, get all. There's higher military on LinkedIn, which was an outstanding resource along with some other stuff. So I would post not all the time, but every once in a while about things that I was interested in. And I found that...

Cheryl 

Yes.

Kyle Smet 

give me more and more connections. So I went from zero connections to I'm close to 500 now, I think after about four or five months on LinkedIn. So I'm getting there and I'm not trying to be a power user. And if this is what folks wanna do is they separate to kind of be power LinkedIn users, they can certainly do that. But for me, it was about just making those connections. So wouldn't you know it, as I was building these connections and getting these industry connections with my consulting firm,

Cheryl 

Yes.

Kyle Smet 

somebody out of the blue contacted me over LinkedIn and said, hey, you should really think about this company. It was a company I'd never heard of. And I'd gotten a couple of those. And again, as I said, I didn't turn anybody down. I didn't go, oh, sorry, that's not for me. I took a look and I said, this actually looks pretty cool. So I wrote back to this person. We started to communicate. He elevated it to his manager. The manager and I had a conversation just like what we are. And he said, look.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 

Good.

Kyle Smet 

We need to get you on the phone with everybody who I'm working with today. So that day, I think I had about six phone interviews and I knew that this wasn't necessarily, is his experience commensurate with what we need? It was, is this guy a good fit type of a thing? And that's where you get in some of those intangibles of, okay, I saw your resume, got it. Let's talk about who you are and kind of what your priorities are and maybe what your vision is and those kinds of things. So.

Cheryl 

Right.

Kyle Smet 

As it turns out, I got along really well with everybody during those interviews, and I was able to get an offer from that company, which I accepted. I likewise got an offer from an industry partner that was aligned with a consulting firm shortly after I accepted the offer with the other company. So long story short, I used LinkedIn as a resource. I uploaded.

Cheryl 

Wow.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Smet 

the resume pieces that worked really well for me into LinkedIn as almost kind of a resume offshoot. And that's how I got my job. What I heard from a lot of connections and a lot of buddies and a lot of folks that I talked to was like, they said, dude, you're doing all this stuff and that's great and that's super important. You're going to find a job because you just know somebody. Your neighbor is going to work with somebody and they're going to put you in touch with this person and you're going to find a job. And that's not what happened. Likewise, I heard.

Cheryl 

Yeah. Maybe. Mm-hmm.

Kyle Smet 

it's going to make you very uncomfortable that you're not going to have a job when you're just a couple of weeks out and that's okay. That happened. And yes, I was uncomfortable. So I was pretty eager to hop on an opening that really kind of was a good fit for me. And I wanted to do that earlier rather than later because I value my sleep. So in talking with this company, it made sense.

and I accepted the offer. And so far, I've been really, really happy. I'm about a month with them, so it's really too early to say. I think like a lot of military folks, we have some loyalty issues. So I've been with the Air Force for 24 years. I've been married for 21 years. I've had the same car for 10 years. I'm a loyalist, right? So what everybody will tell you is that...

Yeah, you're going to go through two or three jobs, you know, the first couple of years. Eventually, you're going to land on the right one. I did not want to start off that way. And that's not to say that that's a bad perception or that's not the right thing to do. But I wanted to make the right decision when I could. Now, that's not to say that something might happen down the road in either with who I'm with or with me. But

their vision and their flexibility and their priorities really conform with mine. And I got three kids and I couldn't afford to take a lot of time off to find the really, really right fit. Like it was time for me to go. One thing I'll mention when I was in SkillBridge that kind of took me by surprise was my mentor was a retired two-star.

And he sits me down and he goes, Kyle, so what do you want to do? And I wasn't really expecting that question. And it's a pretty simple question. But you know, because I've been in the service for 24 years, I kind of came up with a boilerplate. I want to continue to serve my country and I want to leverage my contacts and experience in order to do the right thing to make the world a better place. He's like, okay, what do you want to do, man? And he was right. We have for so long been as selfless.

Kyle Smet

as we can to do the right thing for the mission and for the people who are charged under our leadership. And I thought about that. And when I came back to him, my answer was similar, but a little bit more simple. I said, I just want to find a job where I can kind of do the things that I was doing and to continue to do the right things.

which was still a little bit too generic for him. But what that meant was that I did not want to align myself with an organization that was kind of built on a quarterly basis that was purely profit driven for a product that I didn't necessarily believe in. If I was going to be aligned with a company that did provide a product, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't selling snake oil, that it was a product or a service that I believed in. And I'm pretty happy that I've landed where I did.

Cheryl 

Yeah.

Kyle Smet 

Um, the only other piece of advice that I would give as part of the process of actually retiring, um, is you have to go through the VA process, right? Um, so I'm, I'm an aviator. I avoided the flight doc for 24 years. And then of course your last year in service, now it's time to actually take stock of everything that has been broken over the past 24 years, uh, whether it's exposure to the burn pits or any kind of, um, back neck, knee type strains, those types of things.

So as you put together all this VA stuff paperwork, I highly recommend getting a VSO or I think it's a veteran's service officer and they're through like the VFW or the Disabled Veterans of America, lots of different organizations where you can have somebody who is either a separated or retired member who can walk you through that paperwork and kind of understands the ins and outs. So instead of you doing it by yourself, you're aligned with somebody who can...

not do it for you, but work with you. I cannot recommend that enough. My VSO was fantastic. There are some for-profit folks out there, and every time you talk to the VSOs, they say, do not align yourself with any kind of lawyer who promises you a higher rating based off of XYZ. Now, having said that, there are some folks that I know that have done that successfully, and they recommend that.

That was not what I chose to do, but that's okay.

Cheryl 

So tell me, regarding any type of disability status, and don't disclose it, but how would that impact your job search? And how comfortable were you in clicking the boxes when you were applying for companies on clicking either disability, protected veteran, things like that? Give me your thoughts.

Kyle Smet 

Yeah.

So that's, and I can't run down the point allocation for disabilities, but there are some federal jobs that will provide some amount of preference towards veterans who have disabilities. I had not gotten my rating yet, so I didn't align myself with disability, but I was pretty comfortable knowing that I...

any reputable organization wouldn't turn somebody away because of those kinds of disabilities, right? So from my perspective, I wasn't really worried about it, nor was it really in the back of my mind. This was, this is just part of the process of either separating or retiring is getting that rating. So again, when you have these interviews, when you have these talks, there's that rapport, but if there's any other kind of disability, either physical,

Cheryl 

Yes.

Kyle Smet 

or mental, those are things that you disclose and you work with your company if they ultimately like to go with you. So I didn't have a problem, but I know some other folks are in different boats.

Cheryl 

I like that. I like that you say that one of our experts this hour is going to be talking a little bit about neurodivergence, which is now being talked about in the corporate sector a lot. And accommodations are coming up for ADHD, autism, dyslexia, you name it. So dysgraphia, dyscalculia, there's all sorts of things that are being talked about in the corporate spaces. Were they ever talked about in the military?

Kyle Smet 

Yeah.

Cheryl 

your knowledge. I know you weren't in an HR position, but what were your...just give me a high level view of what that was like in the military if you heard those words.

Kyle Smet 

So I've heard those in other terms, right? So in the era that I grew up, that wasn't really discussed. Any type of emotional situation that you may have that was causal based off of something that you had prior to entering service or something that happened while you were in service. Those conversations.

Kyle Smet 

from my perspective in the past five or six years have become a lot more open, more transparent, and I think healthier. 

Cheryl 

PTSD, TBI, military sexual assault, in the last five years, have they been talked a little bit more? I know PTSD has hit the mainstream. 

Kyle Smet 

Sure. I was talking with another separated individual and we were kind of...you know, sharing war stories and whatnot about the VA process. And this person indicated that they were at a pretty high level of disability, almost 100%. And I said, oh my gosh, wow, I mean, you must have undergone some pretty significant stuff. And this person said, well, it's related to PTSD as a result of some sexual assault incidents. So that's unfortunate to hear, but I was

I was encouraged because this person had elected to lobby for some of those issues and kind of the lack of focus that they had seen around those issues. So they had taken this incident and turned it into something to help other people. I thought that was fantastic. So the curtain, I think, is being lifted in, or has been lifted the past several years. Now they are more open, and it's encouraging for me to see senior leaders be extremely forthright to the point that one senior leader-opened his calendar for his entire organization, and he had mental health appointments that were on his calendar. This was a general officer who was showcasing to his organization that it was okay to talk about some of these stressors. We've had some senior retired officers come out to kind of talk about some of the significant health challenges that they had being under the enormous amount of stress that they were

Kyle Smet 

were defined by the things that happened to us or these stressors that we kind of undergo in our daily lives. But it's important for younger soldiers, younger airmen, younger Marines to see those senior leader examples, to see that it's okay to talk about these stressors. It's okay to talk about mental health. And more importantly than that, it's not going to impact your career because I've seen it impact people's careers and it's painful. It's painful.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Smet 

Again, we have work to do, but it's important that we keep those conversations going, absolutely.

Cheryl 

I appreciate your advocacy and I want to say that as someone who's kind of traversed the lines of asking for accommodations and feeling really uncomfortable doing it in corporate America, it is frightening. I've sat on panels with the Air Force for their wounded warriors branch and that is the number one question everyone asks. Should I click the disability? Should I, you know, should I? I see many corporations are expanding their disability lists.

And I just want to say for the record that if you are with a reputable company, that is information that is provided to the HR department, not necessarily the recruiters and certainly not the hiring managers. We don't want to, we, ha, me, I don't want any of my clients to do this, but my, the goal should be that if you are a protected veteran, if you are coming in and claiming a disability, that is held

not just close to the chest, but it's never put in a place where you are incurring bias. At least that's the goal. Now, talking about it in the workspace, you can't manage your managers. You can't manage your co-workers. Some of my colleagues with PTSD, TBI, wouldn't put their back to the door. They asked for mirrors so they could see who was walking in behind them, and that's very valid.

There are so many small accommodations that can be made that don't even have to be discussed. Hopefully, if you are looking at a company with a good HR department, they should have an accommodations branch or an accommodations team. So thank you for exploring that, Kyle. You mentioned something about gory details. I'm always interested in the story behind the story. Did you already tell us your gory details? Were you just kind of teasing me?

Kyle Smet 

Yeah.

Cheryl 

What were your gory details? Come on.

Kyle Smet 

. So everybody's details are going to be different than my details. I feel I was pretty successful with leveraging my resume to my LinkedIn as best as I could. I feel like I probably could have started a little bit earlier with some of the admin separation stuff. I was aligned with two different organizations and it was kind of a paperwork nightmare. Likewise,

you're doing this, life continues to happen. For listeners who are married, have a significant other, who have kids, those problems don't go away. So I was always sensitive to compartmentalize as best as I could, and I would come home and I would help with homework and do those normal day-to-day spouse things without kind of bringing some of those external stressors home. But I'm also, by nature, a pretty happy-go-lucky guy. So-

Cheryl 

Yes.

Kyle Smet 

you know, I try not to get too bent out of shape or too stressed out really about anything. So I had never retired before. This was the first time I had retired. And a lot of the folks that I met with administratively maybe took that for granted in that this is just their job and they're used to transiting all these different retired people. But for all of us, it's brand new. So our stress level might be higher than the person who's trying to help us. So lots of perspectives across the board.

Cheryl 

Great.

Cheryl 

Question, do you feel today that you should have had more time or taken more time?

Kyle Smet 

there will never be enough time to do the things that you need to do. So for me, it's about priority, making sure that you put the top priority first. If you wait till the last minute, it's only gonna take a minute. If you gave me four years to retire, it would take me four years. If you gave me a year, it would take me a year. You just plan differently and you prioritize differently. There's not a lot that I look back and I go, wow, I wish I would have done this and I wish I would have done that.

because it kind of worked out. And the so what of that is that most of the retired people who have recently retired that you talk to, they kind of go, hey, you know, it kind of worked out. You know, things didn't necessarily go according to plan. I yanked when I should've yanked, but at the end of the day, here I am and I have this job and I'm pretty happy. And I think we as recently retired folks have a new sense of freedom in that if we're not happy with where we are, we can go do something else.

We can leave and that's okay. But I...

Cheryl 

says this super loyal guy who's driven the same car for 10 years, worked for the military for over 20, married for over 20. Tell me about being flexible, Kyle. Tell me.

Kyle Smet 

There you go.

Kyle Smet 

Yeah. But I take that as a compliment, because that just means that I chose right the first time. To me, the decision with who you want to spend your life with is the most important decision that you'll ever make. What you do for a living, what kind of car you drive, all that stuff is secondary. The partner that you choose to have, if you choose to have a partner, is the most important decision that you'll make. If you get that right, the rest of us, the rest of us, not too bad.

Cheryl 

Yes.

Cheryl 

Wonderful. You've been a just a bunch of good information and I want to I don't want to stop you But these are only you know short segments and what I'd like to do is invite you back as you career your career journey continues and To see where you've gone with it But I hope that it sounds like you're very proactive and that you've got a great drive And I know that you said at the beginning before we hit the record button that your intent was to

impart information, share your gory details, even though they weren't that gory, and to give back. So how might someone get ahold of you if they were looking for a mentor? Are you reachable on LinkedIn?

Kyle Smet

I am so Kyle Smet SMET on LinkedIn. Happy to touch base with anybody who wants to chat folks who have retired are generous to a fault. I have had strangers reach out to me who have offered to help, who have offered to walk me through.

their process to look at the resume. I'm certainly open to do that, but I'll say that with great humility and that I'm probably not the best resource to help somebody along, but I can always offer my perspective and just kind of walk them through what worked for me and what didn't. So LinkedIn is a great way to reach me.

Cheryl 

Thank you, Kyle. The veteran community is very special. I am honored to sit at this table and act as a connector for this exchange of information. I'm gonna close out this segment, but if you have any last alibis, you can say I'm here.

Kyle Smet 

No, I certainly appreciate the time, Cheryl. Thank you so much. And you're doing a great service to the community by sharing all these different voices. So kudos to you and thanks for having me.

Cheryl 

It's my pleasure, sir. Thank you so much. All right, we're going to end this segment and we're going to be rolling into the deep with our next segment, who just happens to be an expert, and we'll be talking about disabilities. I'm Cheryl Cross, and you are listening to Exchange, the military to civilian career transition power hour. Stay tuned.

Kyle Smet 

Thank you.

Cheryl 

Welcome back to the show. I am super excited to have someone I've known since, well, grade school. And he is an expert in the world of neurodivergence and accommodation, although we don't like that word. But he's really here to talk to us about how you might talk up for yourself, support yourself, look for environments where you will thrive in your civilian career. Welcome to the show, Breath.

Brett Greene 

Thank you, Cheryl. I really appreciate you inviting me. And how often do you do podcasts with somebody who went to junior high school?

Cheryl 

Exactly. I'm super thrilled to have you here today. And not only because we've known each other since we were kids, but because you're talking about something that's very important. As the folks who are listening are either planning on leaving or have left a very structured, predictive career environment, they're looking at a very organic, flexible, fungible world of either corporate or just civilian work. How can they...

best, and this is your expertise, how can they best advocate for themselves if they feel they are neurodivergent in a very neuro-typical world?

Brett Greene 

That is such a loaded question. So I know that you always suggest people reveal it and I always tell people that's their personal choice only because people don't always feel safe. And you don't know when you're applying for a job, when you're interviewing for a job. In most occasions, you don't have an idea of whether it's that would seem safe. What I would suggest is doing a little research on the company to find out, do they have employee resource groups for neurodivergent people? Or what kind of policies do they have? Because a lot of the companies, even though they're a minority of the companies, a small number of companies...will have these programs and they're proactive about neurodivergence being part of their diversity and inclusion in the company. Those that do generally, they see it as a pillar of their company. So they talk about it, they write about it, they want people to know about it. And so my first suggestion is seek out those companies and find companies where it already is a value. Because it's either one that has it, that you know they have it, you know they don't have it, or you're not sure, which is most. And in the not sure scenario and the don't have scenario, don't have, I would just find another company. Don't bother. Because maybe they're gonna move in that direction, but whether or not they do, you could be in a toxic environment. And now whether you were there.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

got hired and you're two or three months in, or you're a year in, you still, there's this point where you realize this is gonna, it's gonna end badly and I don't know how soon. I mean, most of us, so I have ADHD, I guess we should start there, and you have ADHD, and generally if you are neurodivergent, there's a comorbidity, so a lot of us also have autism, dyslexia, anxiety, depression, or different things.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

to go along with if you're military PTSD or whatever else could be there. So, knowing, you know, that our brains work this way, a lot of us, most of us have had careers of getting fired a lot and or quitting a lot and that's typical for neurodivergent people because these systems are neuro-typical and

Cheryl 

Hmm.

Brett Greene 

the people running them assume everybody's brains work the same way. And especially because we generally have high IQ, we really confuse them because we're really smart or really creative or really innovative. We, um, our brains work to problem solve and to connect dots. And we do these amazing things that they can't do that impress them. And then they don't understand why we can't remember where to put the coffee cup in the break room because

that seems simple. And if you're neurotypical, it's really simple. But if you're neurodivergent, and they mentioned it to you four or five times, unless you made a mental note or you created a quick, easy system like, okay, when I go in there, it's on the left two. Think when I walk in, left two and do it, we could lose that. Especially because it's not something interesting and it's not something novel and fun that's gonna excite us and stick with us. 

Cheryl 

You brought up a great point about an interest-based nervous system. Let's dive into that a little bit more. how could they, aside from looking at the environment of a company? How could they communicate this potentially in an interview or should they? What are your thoughts on this as a coach?

Brett Greene

I don't know if they should, you know, just again, because it, you know, we talked about this before, I think your personal attitude is the best one. And it's hard for a lot of people to stand in it. So, um, if you're able to stand in it and say, this is who I am. This is how my brain works. it's not going to change. You know, medication, education, coaching or therapy give us, in my mind, motorcycle brakes for our race car brains instead of bicycle brakes. But we still don't have car brakes, much less race car brakes. And so we are going to be this person when we show up at work and how we do these things. So I do agree with you that it is better to just say it because actually that would save you a lot of time.

Brett Greene 

and misery, hoping something's going to work out or getting in a situation where you think there's something bad or wrong about you because it's not a fit. When there's nothing bad or wrong about you, it's not a fit and it's a bad system. So I agree with you that that's the best way. And a lot of people I talk with, they're not secure enough or confident enough in themselves about it or they're just in a situation of like, I need money.

Cheryl 

I need a job.

Brett Greene 

I need a job. So what do I do to at least get a job? And then, then maybe if I look for another job, while I have a job, in those interviews, I'll start off with a, I have ADHD, because, you know, it's complex. And the most complex part of it is the root of all of these challenges is a lack of education.

And our society is not educated on ADHD, on neurodivergence, on what that means. And so when you talk to the HR person, which is just another human being, they most likely, unless they or someone in their family has ADHD, they don't get it. They don't know what it is. So even if you declare something in your brain, you have a definition of that. Oh, I'm declaring out of ADHD. It means this thing.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

and you think they're gonna get it the way you think of it in your brain, and they won't, because they don't have the education that you have. If they have a son or a daughter who has ADHD, they'll get it, and that'll be great. And it's roulette, you just don't know, right? How much that person knows. So it's hard in an interview situation to do that, because it is putting yourself out, it is being in a vulnerable place, but it does...

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

help you not waste your time or theirs if it's going to be something they misunderstand or they don't want to support.

Cheryl 

We talk a lot about fit in not only this podcast, but the LinkedIn live audio shows that I host. And I want to just reiterate for those listening that we're talking about disability here. And disability in the military usually is a very physical, it is a visual disability. And now with PTSD, sexual trauma, there's lots of other things that are in those boxes. So I want to just say that...

You know, we're speaking specifically to neurodivergence with Brett, but Brett has a really interesting purview because not only does he help companies create what's called employee resource groups, and I'd like you to talk about that, Brett, but these are really kind of like segments that corporations create for people who have like interest. Why don't you talk about employee resource or business resource groups a little more for our audience?

Brett Greene 

Sure. So usually they're really, really large companies. You know, the smaller the company is, the less likely they might be to have this. So an employee resource group could be for black employees, for veterans, for women, for neurodivergence. And the point of the group is, so for instance, you know, I'll give a smaller example.

smaller company that makes it easier. So there's a gaming company I've worked with that has 250 employees. And in their neurodivergent group, they have 30 people. So out of 250 people, 30 of them raised their hand and said it, which means there's at least another 30 that either don't feel secure to share it or they don't know, because that's the other thing is the majority of people specifically with ADHD and a lot of times with autism and other things too.

people don't know just because they didn't get a diagnosis yet. So they might not even think about it. They might have kind of wondered. Um, but you know, the estimate is that when you look at, let's say a company and how many people might be neurodivergent, um, less than half are going to know they are because most of us just haven't gotten a diagnosis yet. Um, until somebody goes like,

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

know you might have ADHD because of the thing or the right now the fastest I'm sorry I'm jump ADHD I'm jumping around not linear but the fastest growing group of people being diagnosed with ADHD are adult women and the second are adult men and there's a couple of factors to that first up with ADHD there's three types what we have always called ADD attention deficit disorder technically they don't

inactive, no, I'm sorry, it's later in the day, inattentive. Thank you. Yeah, my executive function is going now. So inattentive ADHD is what we've all said, squirrel, ADD. And then, you know, the ADD, ADHD, ADHD that we all think about are physically hyperactive people. It's really obvious because those are the people that see jumping out of airplanes, riding motorcycles fast. The cancer is still in the meeting.

Cheryl 

inattentive. Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

And then there's combined type, which is both. So those of us, which I think Cheryl, you said you are too, who are inattentive ADHD, they don't see it. So we're having three to five conversations in our brain if we're awake, and a lot of times when we're asleep. And nobody knows, because we're not physically running around. They might see our foot doing that, and that's kind of a giveaway. But usually, they don't know. So. So we were also first off depending on your age they weren't even paying attention when we were kids to this stuff. So If they were paying attention later, they still don't kind of know because they're dealing with the hyperactive kid they're trying to get to sit in the chair in fifth grade and we're the ones that are quiet and Usually we have really high IQ. So we're quiet. We're smart We're really, you know good education on some things but other things

Cheryl 

Mm-mm.

Brett Greene 

might just not, you know, compute for it. Like I'm great with words, not numbers. So, but I know ADHD people who are great with math, you know, and engineers. So, so we've been overlooked and we don't know. So what's happening a lot now is first there's a lot more awareness, especially the last five or 10 years with Gen Z, with TikTok and YouTube having, you know, people doing shows about ADHD. So the awareness is a lot higher than it used to be. And

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

Um, a lot of people are getting their kids diagnosed and it's hereditary. And the majority of the people go in to get their kid, kid diagnosed. And the doctor goes, well, you know, you might want to test yourself too. And so in the case of women, more likely to be inattentive. So you're not physically running around so they don't notice. And you just don't think about it. 

Brett Greene 

I mean, one thing that I really advocate for, and I don't know if it'll ever happen, is with job descriptions, when you hire someone for the job, hire them for the outcome you want in the position, not that list. Because you know this, especially with what you do. Job descriptions are BS. Job descriptions are a... If we had a magic wand plus an angel and a unicorn,

we would want this description, which basically, maybe if five people did this thing in one body, we'd get what we want. So it's not going to work anyway. But then when they hire you and say, oh, well, your job title is X and here's all the things. And then you go for your review six months later and they look at the list and they're like, oh, but here are these things you're not doing. And those things generally are because your brain's not wired that way, but you still usually over.

delivered what they wanted, but somehow they're focused on like, well, I have a list of 20 things. There is the six. And it's like, well, who cares about the 20 things? What was the big thing you wanted me in my position to deliver to you? And if you got that, be happy. 

Cheryl 23:15.402)

Another thing, I want to jump on what you're saying here because this is leading up to something called RSD, rejection sensitivity dysphoria. That's a very technical term. You'll see it in the DSMs. I think we're up to five now, right Brett? The rejection sensitivity dysphoria is part and parcel to neurodivergence. And it is also not in everybody in the population, but how this plays out in corporate America.

Brett Greene 

Yes.

Cheryl 

I know that this is something you work with your coaching clients. So how do you coach against that? 

Cheryl 

So talk to me a little bit about that and to our audience, maybe someone knows what RSD is, maybe they don't. So let's assume they don't.

Brett Greene 

Yeah, well, I would suggest everyone listening just do a search on rejection-sensitive dysphoria to know what it is. And, you know, in coaching, they talk about the leader within and the saboteur, which a lot of work I work with people on. It's really just shifting your identity based on your relationship with yourself and how you choose things. They call it a saboteur.

Cheryl 

Okay.

Brett Greene 

The thing with ADHD and ADD is we're active. And either way, you're really mentally active. We are creating all the time. We're like way ahead of neurotypical people.

Cheryl 

Yep.

Brett Greene 

And most of the products that you love, they're from neurodivergent people. It was not a neurotypical person who created your computer or created your phone or created your video game, or probably even created the engineering that made plumbing possible because we're wired to look for where things don't fit and to look for solution. And so we get the dopamine from the solution jumping back to talking about being in the workplace. We.

the money doesn't drive us, the power doesn't drive us, because we always have low dopamine. And that dopamine, the dopamine hits from solving problems. And a lot of times making people happy because that feeling appreciated

We have to believe like, oh, I did this thing and you kind of know it was good, but somebody else like, wow, that's really good. 

We're not just in an Android world. We have an Android world. We, we have.

Cheryl

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

a Microsoft world, we have an Apple world, we have different ways of doing things and neurodivergent brains are a different operating system from a neurotypical brain.

Cheryl 

So riddle me this, a lot of the folks listening have been in the military. At one point, maybe they're still in the military and they're looking ahead at a way to find theirself in the marketplace in the corporate world. Talk about masking. What is masking?

Brett Greene 

Masking is trying to fit in. It's trying to not spill the milk and not let them think that you're the kind of person who would spill the milk. You know, I just had the call I had before this with a client is somebody who's an entrepreneur. And one of the things he said was that he's challenged with and I'm trying to help him with is

Um, he's, I forgot the way he phrased it, but it was, it was basically, I can't let the partners, the customers, the outside world know that this is an ADHD system inside. He was like, he was like, they, they need to like, they, when they hear what's happening at the company, they need to be hearing what in his mind is like the way a company should be.

And because his brain works differently and he's like, you know, and we always see the RSD, we see the things we aren't doing instead of we can be doing 100 amazing things and all we see are the two that aren't there. I get on stage in front of hundreds of people and I always notice the two who aren't paying attention. I think that no one's getting any value and then 20 people can come up after and go like, oh, that was so great. That really helped me. And I still have those people stuck in my mind until the next day that, you know, weren't paying attention. We just had nothing to do. It's just what's going on with them.

But in him with his company, he's afraid because we're always afraid we're going to drop the ball because we do. We, you know, we've dropped the ball. We spilled the milk because we're going fast. You know, you know, one of the ADHD books is faster than normal. Our brains are faster than theirs are. And we do things faster and they don't understand why. And they may not even pay attention, but they'll notice when.

We miss something because we were working on 12 things and we got seven done. They were only working on three and they got two done, but we feel like we screwed up because, um, because those things were the, because the other thing is we're always, since we're always scanning unconsciously for what's missing or, or how to put the dots together, we always see how things could be better, which is great in building things, but it's also a curse because 24 seven.

Cheryl 

Yep.

Brett Greene 

No matter how good it is and how amazing it is you see how oh, but what if you made this week? Are we so we also have a hard time getting things done? we have a we're good at starting it, but we get bored if we're maintaining it and It's hard for us to go like okay. That's ready to ship Okay, that's that reports ready to hand in

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 

So it sounds like imposter syndrome is a big deal here.

Brett Greene 

Imposter syndrome is huge. Yeah, and you know that. And so that's a big part of masking is imposter syndrome. And again, if a neurotypical person says imposter syndrome and a neurodivergent person says imposter syndrome, we think we're saying the same thing. And we're not. Because especially if you have rejection-sensitive dysphoria. So the person who's like, oh, I feel like I'm faking it till I make it, it's not that good, it's totally different than the person who's paddling like a duck.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Brett Greene 

trying to make it really great, but no matter what you do, you can't win. No matter what you do, you're gonna be your worst critic and you're gonna judge yourself in a way that it doesn't come together.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm. It reminds me of a review I had once in corporate America. And they said, you're doing this all the time. You work harder than anyone on the team. And I thought to myself, and? I don't know how not to do that. That's just my MO. That's what I do. That's my grind.

Brett Greene 

And feeling like you don't belong, I think also could potentially that imposter syndrome, it's really big in neurodivergence. Like, I'm going to be found out because I'm masking my symptoms. I'm not able to tell them I have high anxiety or I am depressed or I don't leave the house on the weekend. I'm not socializing. I'm beginning to detach. It's so important that, and I hope that each one of you find, and even if you aren't,

neurodivergent that you look at folks as a neurotypical differently after hearing these conversations because education is what I think, you know, it solves a lot of problems. Bringing up this information, again, if you are neurodivergent and you are looking for corporations or workplaces that are inclusive and support belonging, they should also support your whatever your disability is. Now in the military, again, we're talking about protected.

Veterans, some of them, they have very visible disabilities, some of them are not visible. And we're talking specifically about neurodivergence. We will have more episodes on more disabilities. 

Brett

So that's just another thing that I also think about getting fired is part of life. And I had a boss a long time ago that said there's only three kinds of people in the workplace. People who got fired, people who are about to get fired, and people who are currently fired. I don't know. It's been a while. Yeah, I think I screwed that up. But the point is we all get fired. We either have been fired or we will get fired or we're currently fired.

It's just part of what happens in a job and it's okay. And just like, if you think about the people that really mattered to you in high school that you thought their opinion made such a big deal, you don't even know who those people are or where they are anymore. Think about a job you had five years ago and the boss that mattered so much, you don't even know what's going on with that boss anymore if they're even alive.

Cheryl 

Brett, it's been a pleasure. if the folks listening want to reach out to you, how might they find you? Would it be LinkedIn? And if so, can you spell your name for those listening to the podcast?

Brett Greene 

Sure. LinkedIn is the best, easiest way. So it's LinkedIn slash, LinkedIn.com slash in slash Brett Green, which they can read it here too. B-R-E-T-T-G-R-E-E-N-E. And I also, outside of coaching, I have a...community of 60,000 technologists in the Seattle area, which is New Tech Northwest. So if you went to newtechnorthwest.com, you can go to the contact page there and shoot me a note too. And I'm always happy to help people if there's, you know, if I can share a resource with you that makes your life better, help you take that next step that's helpful. I'm always happy to do that. So thank you for the opportunity, Cheryl. It's wonderful to be here with you and thank you for...Letting me do the ADHD ramble thing.

Cheryl 

I love it. Thanks so much for being a guest. We'll definitely have you back. 

Cheryl 

Welcome back to the show. I am your host, Cheryl Cross. In this segment of the show, we feature folks who have been out between one- and four-years post-military. And I am honored to bring Eric Dosti. Eric, I was joking with you that in your LinkedIn profile, I saw Diamondhead. You were taking that picture from one of the beautiful golf courses here on Oahu. But you're not in Oahu. Where are you calling in from today?

Eric Dostie 

Thank you.

Eric Dostie 

No, so I'm actually in Columbia, South Carolina. So we were stationed in Hawaii for a while, traveled around a little bit, and then ended up back here in South Carolina.

Eric Dostie

Yeah, yeah, so we've been stationed here before. Yeah, we were stationed here a few years back. My wife liked the area. And ultimately after following me around for so many years, I just said, hey, wherever you wanna go, and she wanted to come back here. So it all worked out great.

Cheryl 

A colleague of mine says something that's valid. Happy wife, happy life, right? All those folks that supported you all moving, so many PCSs, it's time to let them make the decisions on where to go. You have an interesting story after how many years in the military. Why don't you go ahead and launch and tell us where you're at? I believe it's two years to the day that you've been out of the military and navigating the civilian workforce. Tell us your story.

Eric Dostie 

Sure.

Eric Dostie 

Absolutely.

Eric Dostie 

Yeah.

Eric Dostie

Sure, sure. So I actually joined the Army right out of high school. You know, I was enlistedI retired as a Command Sar Major. I served for about 31 years. You know, and like I said, two years to the day, it has gone by quick. I was actually kind of surprised. You know, when I did prepare for a transition, I thought I did a really good job at it. But there were some things I didn't really...You just don't know what you don't know, so you kind of find out along the way. A lot of good resources out there that I use that help me make that initial transition, and now as I'm sitting at two years out, I'm kind of re-evaluating everything, kind of see where I go.

Cheryl 

You know, I like this, and I like that you're at this phase now because a lot of people think you just got to go grind, grind. So you entered into a working scenario and then you left the working scenario. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What industry it was, why you chose it, and maybe why it wasn't a fit?

Eric Dostie

Yeah, so actually I did a corporate fellowship through US Chamber of Commerce, Hiring  Our Heroes. They hire some of the best people I ever met. Just really passionate about what they do. So I did a three-month fellowship. It was with a company in Kansas City. It was an underground utility construction type company. I have no construction background at all. So it was interesting.

Eric Dostie 

But the leadership that I talked to as I was interviewing companies, that particular company in general just really, they seemed genuine, they seemed very interested, and they offered me an opportunity to build something, and that's really what I wanted to do. So I did the fellowship, three months. I created a DoD SkillBridge program for that company.

I was able to get it done in three months, so they hired me full-time, kind of in that capacity, right? So I'm like a director of military programs. Really just anything affiliated with the military or veterans kind of came my way, right? So you mentioned spouse hiring. That was one of the things I really liked the most about that job was I got to hire six or seven, I think, over the course of about a year for full-time employment.

So I did that, you know, I enjoyed the work. You know, I did it about a year and a half or so. We moved, so I did it remotely for a little while. But then ultimately the company restructured and they did away with all their workforce development programs. So, you know, the vice president was gone. And then the three of us directors, we all were laid off as well. So.

It was a challenging moment, you know, especially coming from 31 years of Army service, predictability, stability, you know, to being laid off. Whereas, you know, it really didn't matter about your performance, you know, exceeded all expectations, just that it was a business decision that had to be made. And you know, I think it's an area where, at least for me personally, I wasn't prepared mentally for that, right?

Cheryl 

Hmm.

Eric Dostie 

You know, I don't think when you go through transition courses or your TAP classes, they mentally prepare you for, well, what happens if, you know.

Cheryl 

Right. But, and I'm not saying a but as in an interjection, however, your military training teaches you to be flexible and fungible, not to undervalue the shock of being laid off. That's awful. We're seeing a lot of reorganization in the work spots post-COVID because the labor shortage, well, it's just a different labor.

Eric Dostie 

Absolutely.

Cheryl 

mentality right now. People are not returning to work in the same way. So what this means is the corporations are having to do major reorganizations. And I do know it's affected a lot of the folks in my world of HR, a talent acquisition especially, workforce development as well. So I'm not surprised that you were let go. I'm sad about it. You brought up a great point, and that is I was not prepared. The military did not prepare me.

What did you do, and how might someone who is potentially navigating that in their future, what would you recommend they do?

Eric Dostie 

You know, I think the biggest thing that really anybody transitioning from the military, whether you're a career, you know, service member or you're just a few years in getting out, I think ultimately it comes down to a couple of key decisions. You know, location of course, right? So do you have a place you're going to go to? Do you have some place you're already established? A place where, you know, there's a lot of work?

So there's a lot of those type of decisions made. For me personally, it was about, like I said earlier, you know, my family wanted to be somewhere. They followed me around long enough. So I'm going where they wanna be. You know, I'm fortunate enough to be able to do that. I know not everyone can, but you know, that was kind of the location question that I had to answer and everyone has to answer for themselves.

You know, in preparing for the uncertainty piece, you know, I don't really know how you go about doing that. I think it's something that, you know, you have to, well, like you said, you know, we're resilient, we're adaptable, we're used to change. I think it's about finding purpose, you know. Purpose, something meaningful to focus your time and energy on.

So really as you know, it's going on about a year now since I've worked. So it's given me plenty of time to really kind of evaluate where I want to be, what I want to do, and not just find a job, but something that's really purposeful, right? Kind of replace that sense of purpose you leave when you exit service.

Cheryl 

question I have for you. Another thing that comes up, and thank you for that, another thing that comes up a lot is that folks feel that when they leave the military they're leaving a wonderful environment of camaraderie and that they don't really find that level of I got your six, I got your back when they work in the corporate spaces. Was that your situation? I know you don't want to put down your former company, but I'm curious, did you see that when you left the

Did you find it? Were you able to find it in a corporate environment? Were you looking for it?

Eric Dostie 

You know, so I think to a certain extent it's there, right? It's a different flavor, different smell, you know, things are a bit different. But I think you can still find it, right? So like I said earlier, the initial folks that I talked with that brought me on board, that I worked for originally, they were great, you know, they were genuine, they were leaders of character, they really...

able to empathize with what service members go through, and therefore they were champions for this, right? So it really fed into what I was looking for. So initially it was there. I think where it gets challenging though is, after a while, once you're separated from your tribe, so to speak, it was really important for me at least to kind of find those areas where I can plug in.

you know, back with the military community. You know, and it just so happened the job I had allowed me to go and speak to service members on a regular basis. I think that's probably why I enjoyed it so much. But I think that holds true for everyone once they leave service. You know, if they can find, a lot of people nowadays don't like to go VFW route or those type of things, but there's, you know, there's plenty of opportunities where you can still kind of.

connect with your people, right, whatever tribe it is that you have. And I think that's really important, you know, especially if you're going somewhere that's not military affiliated, you know, rural America, I think it gets even harder because you don't have that support system that you might be used to.

Cheryl 

As a consultant, I do work with companies that are wanting to embrace this wonderful, I call it the hidden talent pool. People like yourself who bring so much to the table. And there's a lot of folks standing, actually we sit at a table, or actually you know what, these folks who are in this world, and you know this now, we sort of stand on the rooftops and yell while holding hands so we don't fall off. But it is, it's really up to you, the...

Eric Dostie 

Mmm.

Cheryl 

the person looking for the job to carve out the career, to find that place that where you feel culturally that you're fitting in, and that's a big word right now, that you fit within the matrix of that organization that you belong. And purpose, I love that you brought up purpose. I want to talk about that. But first, let's go back to, let's pivot back to your first situation. You faced a layoff. And I want you to unpack that a little bit more.

What were your initial feelings? What was your plan B

Eric Dostie 

Yeah, yeah. Well, like I said, initially it was very surprising, right? I wasn't expecting it because I had, like I said, I had built the program, got it from its very conception to full operating status within that first year. So it really exceeded all expectations. So I thought I was doing pretty well. Looking back, you know, maybe...

Part of it's my fault, maybe I didn't communicate what I was doing well enough with some of the executive leadership. But it was very surprising to me, especially coming from such a stable environment for so long, you know, so it was unexpected. Plan B, you know, it would have been great to have a Plan B. Really my Plan B was, you know, we...

Like I said, I had done well enough, made enough smart decisions to where we're not in a, I don't need to have a job. I more or less can look for my sense of purpose, my meaning. So I'm fortunate and I'm blessed and I totally get it. But yeah, I think I'm, you know, one of my flaws is I probably put all my eggs in that one basket thinking, you know, things were great, things would work out.

I'd work for another five or 10 years and just retire completely, which obviously is not true for everyone.

Eric Dostie 

But again, there's so many resources out there that can assist with those kinds of things.

Cheryl 

Oh, absolutely. We all face adversity, but had it changed the way that you see the civilian workforce, that's kind of where I'm trying to get out of you.

Eric Dostie 

Yeah, yeah, so that's a great point, Cheryl. You know, and honestly, I was just thinking about this not too long ago, you know I understand business. You know, I've been around that long enough to where I know decisions have to be made, so I get it. But I think I'm a bit more leery about trusting companies and, you know, trusting offers and...

I'm very in tune in who I talk to and which companies I'm actually looking into and interested in. So, yeah, that's a great point.

Cheryl 

you know, you talk about purpose, and I just want to bring this full circle. So it sounds like it's really helping you refine that purpose 

Eric Dostie 

And I think to your point, that's something that probably I should have done earlier in my transition process. Yeah, yeah. Maybe. Don't do what I did.

Cheryl 

And sometimes that process is not going to feel great. In the military, if you could draw a parallel for us to help those folks listening. So if you were to take the situation that you encountered in the civilian workforce and make it in, I'm putting them on the spot, everyone, just so you know, I did not ask them to do this ahead of time. But if you could draw a parallel in the military through your X amount of years of service, what would that look like?

How many frustrating, I know the military couldn't have been just all rainbows and sunflowers. It must have been challenging or you would not have continued. We don't go through life well being complacent. We're challenged. So you face challenging situations. How might someone use that military language or that military experience that you're going to bring up to use it towards this type of situation?

Eric Dostie 

Yeah.

Eric Dostie 

Right.

Eric Dostie 

Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that we already discussed, right, so it was the versatility or adaptability, the resilience that comes with it. You know, for service members, you know, we're used to, and this is one of the things I try to talk to most companies about, right? So when you bring on a service member, we're accustomed to moving every two to three years, changing jobs, thrown into positions where you may or may not know what you're doing, you have to figure it out really quick, right? So.

Not every experience is going to be great. You know, a lot of discovery learning. But you know, I think one of the best things about the military really for me is they put you through that, right? So you go through this process over and over. So you get really good at..you know, self-awareness, understanding what your strengths and weaknesses are and how to best apply those in certain situations. You know, there's a lot of, they term them soft skills or, you know, a lot of those, the ability to communicate, you know, regardless of what industry you work in, I think that's probably one of the number one attributes that, you know, leads to success and I think the military is great atdeveloping that because you're forced into those type of positions. So I think the stress and the challenge that the military life kind of puts you through ultimately kind of prepares you for these type of moments. It certainly helped me cope, right? And when I say cope, it just find other things to do in lieu of going to work, maintaining your fitness your mental and spiritual, everything about you, holistic, how you are, how you feel, and your wellbeing. It really has helped me and it's prepared me for some of the post-military type challenges.

Cheryl 

Well, congratulations. I'm so grateful for your story. And even though I'm sorry you had to go through a layoff, that is tragic and devastating. And it is affecting a lot of people at different times of an inflation, recession, or recovery, wherever we are in our economy for the United States. But I know you've brought some valuable things to people who potentially may go through that too. Is there anything you'd like to leave with?

Eric Dostie 

No.

Cheryl 

First off, you did continue the mission by creating that SkillBridge program, and wherever you end up going, I wanna thank you so much for what you've contributed so far, and if you continue with that purpose, awesome. I'd love to keep you in the circle, maybe we could check back with you so you could be in the five-year segment, which is the folks that are gonna be coming up next. But tell me, do you have any last alibis, anything you'd like to add before we say goodbye on the segment?

Eric Dostie

Sure, sure.

Eric Dostie

You know, to touch on that, the SkillBridge, right? So I think just career skills programs in general come a long way over the past few years. You know, and I talked to a lot of folks that maybe left the service 10, 15 years ago that didn't have that opportunity. So what I would tell everyone is if they have the opportunity to be in one of these programs that gives you an opportunity to try something out.  Find out if you're good at something. Find out if you're interested in something. I think it's probably the best thing about transition right now because it does set you up for success. You just have to be careful about which company you go with and what you're gonna end up doing. But if nothing else, I think that's one of the key things that really assists you in this process.

Cheryl 

You can't predict layoffs, just so you know. I know it's hard. It's hard. But I appreciate your advice. I want to thank you all. This is the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour. We just listened to Eric. Hey, if you want to get in touch with people, Eric, are they OK to reach you through LinkedIn? And can you spell your last name? There's a lot of folks that are just listening and not watching.

Eric Dostie 

No, no. No. Sure.

Eric Dostie 

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, I'd be happy to connect with anyone, discuss any similarities or anything I did wrong that might be helpful to know about. My last name is D-O-S-T-I-E. And like you said, Cheryl, all I have to do is look for my face with a big diamond head background and they'll find me.

Cheryl 

You're awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show. I look forward to your career progression. We'll certainly stay in touch through LinkedIn. And I just wanted to say thank you. Good luck in your search.

Eric Dostie 

Alright, thank you so much.

Cheryl 

And, we're back. This is the last segment of the Power Hour and we always end with somebody who has been out of the military not so long that they've forgotten and my next guest is going to surprise you because he has a fresh memory for the last 20 years. 20 years ago he left in a down economy. His name is Darrell Williams and he is a noted speaker in this world and a great advocate. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being with us today.

Darrell Williams 

Thank you for having me.

Cheryl 

It's an honor, sir, honestly. I want to go back to some of our conversation that we had pre-production and talk about what it was like trying to get a job in a down market, which is happening right now. Share that with us.

Darrell Williams 

Sure. So, I retired out of the military in February of 2005 and those that remember that time, it was a recession. And the thing about retiring, which even today affects you, is I put my paperwork in a year out. So, you had no idea what was going to happen, right? That fear of the unknown. But I just had a certain confidence that something would work out. I would find.

where I would need to go even if it's just temporary until I found the permanent. And from my story, I was preparing a year out. So I was taking a lot of notes, talking to a lot of people in my new show. This is three LinkedIn, right? So this is everything on your own. And as I was taking notes, people were remembering like, hey, you need to go talk to Darrell before you get out. Now these are people that were getting out right before I was. But since I was the note taker, they were coming to me and asking me questions. I was like, okay, I need to put a...caveat here I have not gotten out yet I'm going to get out with what I'm sharing with you or things that people have told me so I have not lived it yet and but they were okay with it because like we talked about and tap they do a very good job of what they're supposed to do but they don't go into the details of what a lot of people would like them to do so I was able to provide those details and then share those stories of individual that said hey when I did get out

Cheryl 

Great.

Darrell Williams 

This is what I would have done differently. This is what I should have done. So I was able to share not just my notes, but even the experiences of those that were recently departed, PCSed or separated, I mean separated or retired. And they didn't mind me sharing it. So that was the other good thing. I was like, hey, do you mind if I share this with other transitioning members? And they were like, absolutely. Matter of fact, have them call me. And so I just started building up my network back then. So then fast forward a year later. I'm getting ready to get out myself and the economy is, again, it's not doing well. So everyone that said, hey, give me a call when you get out. I know what you do. I called every one of those individuals on the list and they were very honest and said, hey, right now we are not hiring. The timing is terrible. I wish I could do something. I'll keep you in mind once things change. And some people get bitter and like, oh my gosh.

Cheryl 

Right.

Darrell Williams 

I forgot where they came from, but they were being honest. So I had to be honest with myself and realized that, you know, things are different, right? So I still have to find a job. I had a one-year-old, because my wife and I started having children late in life. So I had a one-year-old and I'm retiring for 20 and did not have the full 100% disability. So I had to find another job. It wasn't an option. And like I always tell people, you know, looking for a job is a job.

Cheryl 

Yes, it is.

Darrell Williams 

It is a full time thing and it's full of ups and downs. But I always tell people, don't get discouraged. It's a part of the process. I always tell people they're built for it anyway because in the military you have discipline, you know how to persevere, you know how to bounce back. Those things are gonna get tested when you transition.

Cheryl 

You shared some YouTube videos that you've been on different podcasts and video casts, and you said something that really resonated with me personally. And you said, they don't need a year, they need three. Go into more detail for me.

Darrell Williams 

Everyone that I spoke to, when they were backing up their story, they were like, gosh, I wish I would have prepared three years out. And I'm like, three years? Are you kidding? That's the, you're in the middle of your, beginning of your last PCS or whatever that case is. And they were saying, yeah, but there were some things that I could have done that would allow me not to feel like I was crunching time. So even now, I don't tell people three years, I say if they can start, that's great, but definitely at the two year mark you really need to start doing some things because I've coached a couple of people. I remember one gentleman, he had a bad shoulder and I was like, hey, you know, part of your transition, you gotta go talk to the doctor, you need to go take care of that. Oh, I got time, I got time. And sure, when he went to the doctor, he found out that he had to have a rotator cuff surgery. And he was gonna be down for nine months. So he's doing this one year out.

Cheryl 

100%.

Darrell Williams 

So technically he went from having one year to prepare and retire to three months. And I do not want anyone to have to put that type of extra pressure on themselves because it's just not fair to you and it's not fair to your family. So I always preach two years out. There's a nice little transition assistant program

worksheet that they have that kind of has like 24 months are doing this and this so I'm starting to send that out to many Individuals that I know that they say this is my last assignment I send that to them and say you don't have to act on it now I just want to put it in front of you so you're not seeing it for the first time at tap

Cheryl 

That's, I agree. And you know, I have a personal relationship with that because I just released a book, which is a three-year guide. So thank you for letting me talk about that on your space. Sending that worksheet to folks, and you were sort of that historian repository, you were the documentarian, if that's even a word. So are you still that? Are you still collecting resources?

Darrell Williams 

Sure.

Darrell Williams 

I am but now thank goodness for people like yourself, my other podcasts, one of my all time favorite guys, Michael Quinn who I hope you'll be able to get on the show one day. These individuals do such a great job that they make my job easier because now I still do my initial chat with individuals and I walk with them until they feel like they don't need anymore. But then I just turn them over to people like, oh hey, connect with Michael Quinn on LinkedIn.

Cheryl 

I know, Michael. Yep.

Darrell Williams 

Listen to everything, go back to the beginning, and then I'll partner them up with people like Training with Industry, ACP, Four Block. There's so many great organizations out there, so one of my big takeaways for people is don't try to transition alone. Right, don't believe like, well, I'm a macho person and I should be able to figure this out. We all have to figure this out, and it's okay to figure it out together.

Cheryl 

So who would you say, let's say there's someone listening that really doesn't have a good strong support system, what would you suggest?

Darrell Williams 

first thing I would tell them is they still need to pause and look for a mentor. Because there are mentors out there and the great thing about virtual world now is you don't have to find a mentor right down the street. You can have a mentor in another state, another region. The first thing I would tell people is get out of the shyness. Don't worry about I don't know this person. Get on LinkedIn. Create your account. Right?

and then start connecting with people because they're going to be surprised. Most of the people I talk to in the military, they have three years left. And I always raise, you know, ask them to raise your hand. If you heard about LinkedIn, what do you heard about it? And almost 90% of them say, oh, that's that thing for a civilian people. And right there, I'll try to change the mindset and say, well, it's not for civilian people, it's for professionals. Whether you're a civilian or in the military. And if you're in the military, you still have time left. You can take advantage of it.

Cheryl 

You, that's an excellent point. Military professionals are going to find professional level careers outside of the military. So call yourself that if that's your plan. If you don't and you wanna be a vetrepreneur or a solopreneur or maybe take a year off and go to Europe, I don't know. Maybe you're not a military professional. That's just something you did to get some training and some education and that's fine too. 200,000 people.

Darrell are leaving the military every year. They are still, and I'm talking to you with my workforce development hat on, as you know, still underserved. Where do you see, and we're not speaking to businesses on this podcast, we're helping people who are either thinking about it, hopefully two, three, one, years in advance, but what would you say, let's just say, somebody came out of the military

with, oh, let's say six, eight years of experience, which is good. And they're looking for a management level role. Maybe they don't have an education or they have part of an education. They have some certificates and they're a little unsure. How would you coach that person? And I'll just say that maybe they want to be a project manager, something broad. If you met someone like that, how would you coach them?

Darrell Williams 

So with that type of individual, one, we would be very honest. We'd have to say these are the things that they're looking for from an average person that wants to be a project manager. A degree, experience, certification, especially a PMP certification, a certain education level. So I'd make sure they understand this is what they're looking for. However, it doesn't mean you can't find a space in that industry.

It just may take you a little bit more time. You may have to hustle a little bit more, but it's okay because you're built for that. And then when I would ask them a couple of questions to try to narrow down that scope, where do they want to do it at? What exactly do they want to do? Because sometimes in the military, the biggest question really is what do we want to do when we grow up? Right, I've talked to so many people that, it's like, I don't want to do HR. I don't want to do IT. And I'm like, but that's your background. And they don't realize that that's the way that you want to get into the system. So sometimes we have to manage expectations and talk to people about, okay, I know you want to be a project manager. However, what if you came into that industry as an HR person because of your background and that's what they're going to read when they see your LinkedIn profile, when they see your resume, but get in as whatever you're good at. And then once you're inside the organization, find that mentor.

And then from there, start talking about, hey, I would like to branch off to this. And then allow them to tell you, well, if you wanna do that here, here's a competitive program you need to put in for. Here's a competitive education program that may pay for your certificate. It's like you have to put yourself in positions for that pivot, because that pivot is not easy if it's not already naturally a part of who you.

Right? And then from there, I would also talk to that individual about professional organizations. Right? There are a lot of good organizations out there that still work with individuals that are separated and not just retired. So I would try to connect them with those organizations because sometimes those organizations can also walk people through a different path and then allow them to still pivot into that new interview that they really want to get into.

Cheryl 

Just a reminder for those listening, if you have access to what's called American Job Centers, this is a federally funded WIOA, Workforce Initiative of America. They are all over the United States. We have three, four of them here in Hawaii. They're everywhere. And an AJC serves anyone who walks the door, Veterans are a big part of that population. 

Help me out with a conundrum that I have. And I don't want to say this is failure on the person leaving the military, but there's a high number of people, it's well over 60%, who are going into their first job and then leaving within the first year. I've talked to people like yourself who've been out of the military for 20 years, and they said that number was as high then as it is now. What are we missing?

Are people just not preparing early enough? Are they not knowing where they want to go? Or should we just collectively say, stop looking at that number, this is life, move on? People don't stay in jobs forever, we're not working towards the gold watch. You're a problem solver, and I've heard you on so many podcasts give solutions. When I give that to you as a problem set, what do you suggest?

Darrell Williams 

Well, I think something that big has to be peeled back in layers because first of all there's a lot of different reasons for that. For one, I work with people who they don't really think about their whole concept of what they bring to the table. So in their mind it's like, I just need to find a job. Not realizing, oh no, you have time, but they're just so used to working, they're just so used to providing, they're used to being busy. So a lot of times those individuals, they'll just take the first job available.

And then they realize, I really don't like this. Used to be in the military, so I need to be loyal. So they're loyal to at least a year. And then they finally move on to something that's more appropriate to what they're looking for. And then you also have situations where people join the military, they lead the military, join an organization. And then there are some leaders that are jealous. It's like, oh my gosh, this Cheryl person has a master's degree, I'm threatened by them.

So now they're not treating Sheryl with the respect that Sheryl is due. And then the individuals realize, I don't have to take this. I can take my talents elsewhere. But then you have those individuals that also lead. And then you have organizations that go through restructures, rewards. You have different directors or CEOs that come in and say, oh no, we're going to chase the next best thing and we're going to do this and change that. And because of so much change, the individual says, I didn't sign up for this.

And Cheryl, I'm glad that you hired me, and I will forever be grateful to you, but this is not what I signed up for. So it's a lot of different reasons, I would say, because it leads to the reason that people leaving after a year. And then most of it, when you start doing the research, some of it I'm sure is gonna tie into the leaders aren't that great, the mission has changed, the vision has changed.

Or you may be in an organization where there is no mission and there is no vision.

Cheryl 

Talk more about your own personal experience. I want you to go back to that several months where you walked your wife out to her car, so she left for work, and you went back in the house, and you did what?

Darrell Williams 

Yeah, when I got out in 2005, then I realized that I couldn't get a job right away. So talking to mentors at that time, they were like, hey, you just got to hustle. And, you know, started looking for jobs and this again, pre LinkedIn. So there's no one I could connect with. I had to, you know, do the old school way of, you know, do research, find companies, change up my resume. So to start that, you know, I wanted to keep my same habits because in my mind, I knew I would find something.

I just didn't know how soon. And I didn't want to get into a bad habit. So I would still get up at five, do my little morning meditation, listen to some music, kind of get ready. My wife would eventually get up. And then when she would leave, I would walk out the door with her, give her a kiss, say, hey, have a good day, because she said it was working. Then I would walk back in the house, get on my laptop.

and start that routine all over again. Because as I share with people, finding a job is a job. It is nonstop and until you get the actual offer letter, I always tell people, you keep looking for what is the right match for you. Now even though you're doing that, I always let people understand, it doesn't take away the fear. It doesn't take away the fear of the unknown. Like what happens if I don't? What happens if this happens?

And you have to mentally fight through that. And that's what I had to do. I had to mentally every day say, today is that day. And if it's not, I had to repeat it the next day. Because you don't want to give up. You don't want to throw in the towel. Because a lot of times, your next best thing could be right around the corner, literally. And you could be that one phone call away. Or someone like a Shurro says, you know what? I don't have anything. But based on your background, let me pass your resume on to

my friend that works for this organization. So you never know. And for me, the networking was a part and not burning any bridges really paid off.

Cheryl 

Right.

Cheryl 

You said that you had a really interesting experience, that you called a couple of wrong numbers. Now, okay, just back up everyone listening. 20 years ago, we used to use the phone and we didn't text. So picking up the phone and making phone calls, people answered, no one answers the phone anymore. Tell us about that.

Darrell Williams 

Yes.

Darrell Williams 

Right, so During one of those days where I was looking for a job I saw this phone number and I saw the opening for the job and I called the number And it was for the government and I just figured somebody would answer it and the lady that answered said I'm sorry But this isn't what you're looking for. I don't know why people are calling You're like the 10th person a day that have called this number for that job. So obviously was something going on

But then she said, but you know what? I think what you're trying to do, you might wanna call this number. Had no idea what the number was, didn't recognize it, so I called the number and I recognized what I thought was a person on the other end that I worked with while I was in the military. So after I told her what I was looking for and she was like, nope, this is not that, sorry to waste your time. And right before she hung up on me and said, excuse me, is this so and so?

and she was like, yes it is, how do you know my name, who are you? and once I explained to her who I was, she realized I was one of the leads that used to travel with her supporting the vice president when I was in the military and we talked, we caught up and didn't even ask for a job, we were just getting to know each other and then after that she's like, so what are you doing now? and that's when I said I'm actually looking for a job and when I called you was actually a wrong number

Cheryl 

Right.

Darrell Williams 

And again, timing, she just said, well, guess what? We're looking for an instructor at this training academy. And the job that I had, we traveled so much. I didn't even know they had a training academy because that was a whole different part of the agency because we were on the road so much. And she goes, let me get you to my project manager, David Cole. And I'm like, you're not talking about an interview, are you? She's like, yeah, just talk to him. Just be yourself.

And I'm like, holy smoke, I went from a wrong number to an interview, which also goes back to what I tell people, always be prepared, because you never know when that good fortune is going to come around the corner. So luckily I was practicing my skills and interview skills, so he talked, we shared, I was able to answer all the questions. And he didn't know me, but based on what I said and my experience and being able to articulate, this is what I can do for you.

Cheryl 

Well.

Cheryl 

Yes.

Darrell Williams 

this is what I bring to the table. So it wasn't me asking for a job as much as, let me convince you why you need me on your team. And just trying to flip the whole conversation. And he hired me on the spot. Still had to go through the wickets of HR and all those things. And once I got there, rolled up my sleeve and went to work. And I told him, I said, you're not gonna regret this. Every day I'm gonna make sure you know.

Cheryl 

Right.

Darrell Williams 

that this is one of the best decisions you've ever made.

Cheryl 

How has your career progressed since that time?

Darrell Williams 

So I've been very fortunate. Even though I had a job, I would still collect information. I would still talk to people. And then five years into that training position, an agency that was in Virginia was going to move to Fort Meade. And I had two friends that knew that I was still making the long commute from Maryland to DC and they said,

because they're going to be moving and I was like sure and no special favorites because this is just a government agency all they can do is get me to the table and then again I had to sell myself so I got to the they had a big job fair on the base and so funny I walked in there were like five resumes I'm like holy smokes it's like 35 tables here so I remember calling my wife like hey babe I need you to run off like 50 copies of my resume

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Darrell Williams 

You're not going to get close to the door because this place is a madhouse. Just tell me when you get to a certain area, I will walk and meet you. And I got the resumes, came back inside and started going to each one of those tables. Again, just presenting myself. And nothing happened that day. Probably about three months later, I got a phone call, first interview, but they were looking for a civilian personnel manager, where my background was really more of a military personnel manager.

Cheryl 

Oh wow.

Darrell Williams 

And halfway through the interview, Cheryl, I end up actually, I stopped the interview. I said, excuse me, time out. I think we need to stop. And they were like, what are you talking about? I'm like, to me, it sounds like you need someone that's definitely a civilian personnel master. I am not that. You're talking about state regulations and federal civilian regulations. Although I can learn those things, to me, it sounds like you need somebody to walk through the door.

already having those skills and I would be a disservice to whatever your organization is if I came in here pretending that I could do those things. So I think it would be best for everyone involved, we could just stop the interview and I appreciate the experience and they were like, wow, most people would try to just fake it, right? And try to convince you, I'm like, no, my integrity is a little bit higher than that. I don't wanna put myself in a position where I can't take care of people the way they deserve to be taken care of.

Cheryl 

Wow.

Cheryl 

Mm-hmm.

Darrell Williams 

So they said, well, we're going to keep your resume. And if something comes up, we'll call you specifically on the military personnel side. And I just thought that was the standard. Sure, you tell everybody that. That's the loser's speech, right? And three months later, they called me. And it was actually for a military personnel position. And I did the interview. And I got it. And I've been at that agency for 13 years. And it was so interesting. My supervisor, before she retired.

Cheryl 

Oh, wow.

Darrell Williams 

We were just having a talk and she was about to retire and we were just catching up and she was like, did I ever tell you why we hired you? And I was like, no ma'am, you didn't. She said it was down to two candidates. It was you and this other individual. And when we spoke to the other individual, both of you were very qualified, but that individual seemed like he was very high maintenance, very high strong, and the SES that you would be supporting is also high maintenance.

very high strong and we needed somebody to balance him out. So they ended up selecting me because they said they looked like I had the ability to talk people off the ledge which I take pride in doing and the SES that I worked for time after time he would say anybody else I wouldn't believe that but since you said it we'll go in that direction. So I was always fortunate and I tell the military members every skill set that you have every part of your life.

characteristic will play very well in the civilian industry.

Cheryl 

You know, I say this a lot too, if you're not selected, it doesn't always have to do with the skills. Coming from the military, you can do a lot. I can do that, I can do that, I can do that, because you've done it, or you know how to do it, or you could learn it in 15 minutes. It's not that. A lot of companies are hiring for exactly the reason that Durell just said. They were looking for a cultural fit.

They were looking for a certain type of person that had the skills. You came in, technical skillset, right on. The soft skills is what you were chosen by. And don't think if you weren't chosen for soft skills that you've failed because you have not. It just means, and I wanna say this to you all too, it means that you have to be so secure in yourself, which you may not be, especially if you're turning the bend at the end of your transition and going to just get a job.

But if you're planning it thoughtfully, strategically, tactically, you will walk into every conversation knowing your worth, knowing your skills, knowing your interest, and knowing when you can say no. And I think that's so valuable. Well, thank you so much, Dorel. I could talk to you for a long time. And I'd love to keep in touch through either LinkedIn or-

Darrell Williams 

Absolutely.

Cheryl 

engage you in some way. The podcast is just growing by leaps and bounds daily. And I know that you and I were going to either be on a stage soon or doing something together.You are a nice, kind man, and I can see why people want to work with you.

Darrell Williams 

I appreciate that very much and again it's all about paying it forward. And again I just want to let all of our Transition Military members know that again you don't have to do this by yourself. There are lots of organizations and individuals that are willing to help. Just swallow the pride and know that we've all been there. We know what it feels like and we're here to help.

Cheryl 

100%. Thank you, Daryl Williams. Tell us how we can get in touch with you through LinkedIn. You have a pretty common name. Can you spell it and then maybe give us some pointers on how we find you throughout the other Daryl Williams?

Darrell Williams 

Sure, D-A-R-R-E-L-L-W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S, Daryl Williams on LinkedIn. Then you can also find me on my website, AllianceSeminars.org. And those that are still on Facebook, you can find me there as well through Alliance Seminars Coaching. Pretty, once you start Googling me, once you get past

the four-star general Darrell Williams and then the football player Darrell Williams, you'll eventually find me.

Cheryl 

Keep going, but call those people too. They may have a job for you. Because as we showed you, opportunities have been in the weirdest places, right? Right? Is that the theme for today? You've been a pleasure. I'm going to close the show by saying thank you to not only our guest, Darrell Williams, but to you. We're going to take a short break and be back with the end of the show. Thank you so much for watching. Bye for now.

Darrell Williams 

Yes they do.