EP 9: Real Life Vet Stories and Expert Advice: How 2 Navigate a Challenging Mil2Civ Career Shift

Are you a military veteran transitioning to civilian life? Join us for the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour, where we provide expert tips and real stories to help you successfully navigate the job search and plan for your next career. Subscribe now for valuable insights and inspiration to help you move forward in your civilian career after the military!

In this episode of the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour, we delve into the diverse experiences and invaluable advice of those who have successfully navigated the shift from military to civilian life. Our guests, including 2 former Air Force Colonel's Aaron Ffrench and Scot Heathman, independent business owner and vet transition specialist, Jacob Mousseau, and  executive resume writer, Virginia Franco, share their unique journeys and the lessons they've learned along the way.

Key Vet Story Highlights:

Aaron Ffrench's Transition Story: Discover how Aaron planned and adjusted his career transition after 24 years in the Air Force, retiring as a Colonel and Director of Operations for the 19th Air Force, who highlights the importance of adaptability and family support.

J. "Scot" Heathman's Leadership Insights: Former Vice Commander of the 18th Air Force, (Ret.) Colonel, J. "Scot" Heathman shares his remarkable journey of recovery from a brain tumor, "Toby", and how it reshaped his approach to leadership and resilience, and how these circumstances lead him on the path to become an executive coach, just months after his military transition.

Jacob Mousseau's HR Perspective: Jacob (and baby, Jacob Jr.) discusses the challenges he faced during his military transition and how he now assists other service members as they make decisions during their transition, and his

If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour, let us know. Go to www.xchangepodcast.com and click connect. A producer will read your request and get back to you. Thanks for your support!

Learn more about host, Cheryl Cross and her book, "CIVILIAN MISSION: The 3-Year Guide for Military Professionals Planning Civilian Careers" available for order online.

Transcript

Announcer: 0:00

Thanks for listening to the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour One hour of tips from experts and real stories from people just like you. For those thinking about what lies ahead, for those going through the job search and those who have paved the way to their next career after the military. These professionals are dedicated to helping you move forward successfully to the next phase of your career after the military. Welcome to Exchange.

Cheryl Cross: 0:50

And we're starting off our special Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour with somebody in the soup. I'm your host, cheryl Cross, and I tracked this guy down on LinkedIn because he shared a bit of his story that I thought would be valuable for our podcast, and that is probably one that's not unlike a lot of you who are going through the interview, skill bridge, all sorts of things, after 20 some odd years in the military. I'd like to introduce you to former Air Force Colonel Aaron French. Hi, aaron, thanks for joining me today.

Aaron Ffrench: 1:22

Hi, cheryl, thanks.

Cheryl Cross: 1:24

It's really nice to have you here. You and I. We had a very spirited conversation before the call the recording, and I just want to say that there's just not enough time to cover all the big things you want to bring to the table, right, but I'm just going to say something that you mentioned that resonated with me, which was about having a plan. Tell me how this idea of having a plan, getting out of the military, has changed for you over the last year or so.

Aaron Ffrench: 1:53

It is a plan, right, it is an outline, it is a guide and somewhere that someone has either provided to me or it's some kind of an amalgamation of where we wanted to kind of figure this out right. So I had a plan with my wife it wasn't just my plan, right, when I say my plan, it's team French that went after this. We always had an original plan of we didn't we're still loving the military, still love the military, right, it was just when. When is when? Well, that got close and it was always with my two girls, as soon as the first one hit high school. That was the time right I was going to do we were going to be stationary, let them both go through the same high school, move on. Well, that started the idea of what kind of milestone do we need to work through? What kind of backwards plan do we have to work? Well, fortunate or not. Right, I didn't have a real good plan other than maybe throwing something on chicken scratch at about two years out to say, okay, we got back to Texas, which was on our short list, we had several others, but it just worked out that way that we ended up back here, families here, and then to figure out okay, house job, okay, everything's starting to build on, everything's starting to. Pressure was already starting to come on two years out, even when that conversation of, okay, I think it's it, I think we're going to hit the when button right, that's coming in. It was absolutely not an easy button. It was a when button. When things started to kind of figure out, it was still a matter of okay, I'm going to figure out how to get out of this, out of the military. But the fundamental purpose of all that was still to be able to provide security for everything for my family, and I've been in a fortunate situation that we were not necessarily paycheck to paycheck. But that still comes into your into your plan. It has to come into your plan how you're going to provide. So thinking that I was going to get a job right out of the military was it was a no-brainer, I'm like sure why. Who would not want a 24-year vet to come into a job position? I didn't know what that job was. I didn't know the company. I didn't even know the industry that I wanted to start with. I had a short list of things I wanted to stay away from. I had a list of things that I would like to try. So learning more about the mandatory program, the mandatory retirement taps. There's also an E-taps the Air Force provides that I had. I actually took both just to see what the different flavors of conversation and the guidance and mentoring. Well, not to speak poorly of a program, I don't think that it did what it was it's supposed to do. I think it goes to the checkbox. We go through slides, we go through talking points, we go through make sure you do tri-care, make sure you do this, make sure you look at what you're going through. But it doesn't build you for who you are. It doesn't tell you how to have a conversation with somebody, where it's, whether it's a formal or informal interview. It doesn't really do that in taps. There are other programs out there that allow you the opportunity to sit in seminars or even get one-on-one counseling. That I was fortunate to do, through a couple of different organizations that are designed solely in tensions, is to help a vet transition Again with the plan, the organizations that existed to help me personally, professionally, and just to give me some kind of a foundation for the transition that was coming. Because whatever programs exist out there, there is no one program that fits everybody. There are a lot of programs that fit everyone, right, but there's not one that fits me. It wasn't my neighbor or my friends, you've got to figure that out. So it came down to me reaching out into my Rolodex of my peers that have retired recently, my mentors that retired a while back, and some of them were general officers. Some of them were enlisted. I was reaching out to everybody that I knew to ask them the question what would you do differently? It was surprising. They know each other, but the questions they asked me that I needed to answer were pretty straightforward. It was you need to ask yourself what you want to do when you wake up. What kind of day do you want? You want to be at home? Do you want to be traveling? Do you want to take your family with you? Do you want to have breakfast with your wife? Read the paper that was not in taps. That was not a conversation of what do I want my day to be like? So you go back to a dry race board and try to figure out like so, industry, maybe an opportunity, but really, what do you want your life to be like? Do you even want to have a job. Do you want to just be a full-time vacation guy? There's nothing wrong with that, it's just what you choose. I went into a plan asking what do I want to do? Well, that plan kind of again dry race board. Right, so easy, go, easy come. That changed. I chose not to go into the defense industry, not because of any negative reasons, it was just I needed something. Well, I thought I needed something different. I thought that I needed to have an opportunity to use what I have experienced, what I've grown up, the training, just the relationships and positions that I've been fortunate to have. Let's do something different. Let's just go out there and try. Well, that didn't work out the way that I thought it was and that's the part that really where it started to sink in of my plan is not good enough. I thought my plan was great. I had it like months. Six to seven months out is when it really executed. But really it was my locked in dry race board. I even took a picture of it. I had it on my wallpaper, my desktop. I mean it was my plan is perfect. I knew when my terminal leave was. I knew when my skill bridge was going to go. I knew when my permissive to you, my permissive and everything that I had, extra leave, was going to go, yeah. But as soon as I got into that first skill bridge and I realized that opportunity was not for me, things rapidly deteriorated right In a sense of Uh-oh, what now? Like my plan that I had so perfectly set, it is not a is not going to be a thing for me anymore.

Cheryl Cross: 8:41

How hard was it for you to pivot, Erin? How hard was it for you to pivot away from that plan?

Aaron Ffrench: 8:47

That's a great question. It was not easy, but you do, out of necessity, what you have to, because at the fundamental core of this is what do I have to do to take care of my family? Right? I tried to latch on to that plan until the last strings of hope were broken, that that plan was not going to not going to go for me. So the pivot came, and it came quick. It came quick when I realized that there was absolutely no way, this opportunity that I wanted to work so hard because my mind and emotions were all built into this thing, that I had to give it up Once I acknowledged that that wasn't going to work and I needed to focus on something else. Well, that's when the real stress, I think, really came into. Because I didn't have another plan, I didn't have a backup plan. It was so dumb Like it was, it was the most like. That's what I think, ate me the most up Because it might plan. There was no a back, there was no backup, there was no opportunity for failure in that plan. I had to make that work. So so, letting go and pivot, I was telling myself I messed up, right, which is not. That's not easy to do, but damn, I'm glad I did, though, and I'm glad I gave up on that thing. I'm glad that I looked at you, I'm glad I pressed forward. The thing that really started to drive home the problems is when you go through and you learn that it is not easy to get a job on your own. So that is not in taps right, that is not in hiring our heroes. They don't say that. It's not as clear as just someone say listen, it is not going to be easy, like the choice you make to transition in a civilian life. You are going to be on a rough road. I was stressed, the anxiety I mean. I was filling out four or five applications a day, changing my resume, like they said, to make it tailor-bull to every application. I was getting zero callbacks. I was getting zero responses and zero feedbacks. This is after hiring our heroes programs. They gave me the tools that I needed to execute right, which thank you for that but the follow-through, the seal, the deal didn't happen, and I don't know that I'm alone in that, but I know that there are some fantastic opportunities that came and that have worked out for people. So it's just a matter of what do you want to do for yourself and your family when you retire. So that pivot was big and luckily it came down to the fact that my network I started hitting my network in peers, linkedin, friends, text messages hey man, hey buddy, how you doing? Remember me, you got anything. I mean it got to that point. I mean I was. It was almost. It was a gut check in the sense that I felt like I was starting to ask for handouts. And it's not because of financials, right, it wasn't because I needed that, it was my own mental state that I don't do good idle, I don't know how to idle. So even taking vacation or leave air quotes, right, from years ago I was still on work, right, it's not a workaholic, it just, I guess my, my give-a-shit sorry, my care factor was a lot higher to let to let programs go.

Cheryl Cross: 12:03

Right.

Aaron Ffrench: 12:05

So anyway, the pivot was big, it was good, it was a big milestone. It was a milestone in a sense of I. I started to really answer, start answering those questions of what I thought I needed. It wasn't as narrowly scoped as what they were when I asked them the first time. It was more of a well, let's see what opportunity I can land and let's see what I can turn that opportunity into for me. So, like this, this opportunity that I'm in right now, I'm back in the defense industry. I'm super fortunate to be picked up for this company and again, it was not on my number one list but I am extremely fortunate to be here. I'm calling it a soft landing because of the terminology that and some of the organizations they work with. I'm familiar with the team I'm working with. I love it right. I've never been, I don't think I've ever felt this welcomed on a team that is, some of them are prior vets and some of them are not. But the team that I'm on it is another family that has almost instantaneously been built and I am super glad that this is working out this way and now it's just a matter of me learning what my job is, to go forward with that.

Cheryl Cross: 13:19

As of this recording, you're only about 11 days in, so we put Aaron in the soup because he's still very early and everybody loves their first job. Everybody is like I'm going to make this work. Yes, I love them. I'm so excited, but I want to point out how brave you are, and I also want to point something out to you. I don't know if you knew that you do this, but you talk about. You know how we do it, or you know people, so you're distancing yourself, but when you talk about what you go through in the first person, it gets very vulnerable. I don't know how to preface this, but how have you learned to advocate for yourself in this process, or are you still learning it?

Aaron Ffrench: 14:02

I think that that's one of those things I will forever be learning. I have had to find time just to pay attention to what's going on. So my wife and I have been married the same as that time. I've been in the service just over 24 years. We met in college. We had kids about eight or nine years after we were married. So we had a full life of dual income no kids, lots of dogs. I got beagles behind me on the floor. We learned to take care of ourselves. We learned how to you know. But when the kids came into play, that changed it a little bit. But then by that I was really established in the military. So, like you said, the opportunity of how to take care of myself this was another level. I realized that I was well, my emotions were high, right, the stress was high, everything was setting me off in the house. And then my wife looks at me and she's like this is how the transition is not supposed to go right. And I'm like, oh well, that is, that is a. That was a gut check, right, you know. So she, she called me out and I love her for it because it was a moment that I'm like you know what you're right, let's let me. Let me take a moment. So I started back on my my race. The other thing I do for me is I do, you know, marathons and triathlons and I I'm out there, right, so I walk. I'm outside walking at least 30 minutes every day. If I miss it, if there's something wrong, right, either because we had a family event or something, but I do that I. That is my therapy that I have had to figure and I've had to make more, so more prominent in my life as of the last six months. Because if I didn't have an out, if you don't have an out, well then it's either going to do two things. Right, it's either going to bottle up and explode somewhere down the road or you're going to get unknowingly taken out on people that are around you, like I did. So you have to have that out, whether it's reading books, it's listening to music as loud as you possibly can, it's taking vacations, it's, you know, hurting yourself on a marathon, like I do. It's got to be something. That stress and anxiety. I've never felt that before I was. I've been put in charge of people's lives as a commander or as as a director. Right, I've had people's livelihood I was responsible for. Well, that's, that's pressure and stress in in a whole world. I've always had my family there. But the fact that when you take, when you take the military away and you've got just your family to take care of and that is all that you need to really kind of focus on beside yourself within, all of the little things that have kind of been either covered up or just ignored are now there staring you in your face. You have to, could you have to acknowledge that, and this transition was, was a huge milestone in my life and in my family's life. I mean, people say it right, we had, we've got in the Air Force. They have the different programs to to make sure they've got mental health days. They've got people out there to help you talk to somebody. I did right. Well, my wife said this is not supposed to go. I'm like okay. So I, I got the opportunity to go talk to somebody. I talked to him once. It took me like three weeks to even acknowledge to go to talk to somebody. So I did. I talked to this individual and he really didn't do anything but listen, I had no idea how much I had to say and he would just ask a couple of questions, and those questions still to me and this was like six months ago and still sit with me, like so you know, are you the right person for yourself? Are you the right person that you think you're going to be? Are you the you doing what is what's best for you? And I paused because I said it before what is expected of you? Right? That was a that's a different way of saying it, cause there's that pressure what's expected and what's right? Maybe they're the same thing, maybe they're not.

Cheryl Cross: 18:08

Priorities do shift during transition, and it's going to be. I'm not a mental health expert, but I hear your story in so many different ways from almost everyone I speak to. So thank you for being brave and for being vulnerable. You're a former pilot and aviator and I know that you talked about not having a plan B, which is impossible. As a former pilot or aviator, what would you tell people who are a lot like you, aaron French, that this plan is going to work. I'm going to make it happen. Aside from seeking help, which I think is the strongest thing you could have done for not only your family balance but for yourself, what else would you recommend? If someone came up to you and you were still active duty and said, sir, I'm having trouble, what would you recommend?

Aaron Ffrench: 19:19

I think the first thing is you have to identify, as best you can, what the challenge is, and that's either writing it down or talking to somebody that you trust and it doesn't have to be a random stranger that I did, or maybe. Maybe that's what it is, but you need to figure it out, like you have to understand what's what's bringing you down. If it's 18 different things because you have a to do list that you can never get through, well, I venture to say that there's probably only one on there that will may be the one that's driving you down. It's just the other ones that are these ankle buyers on these things. So the first thing to do is to take a look in the mirror and tell yourself hey, look one, everything's going to be okay. You've got people that care about you. You've got people that respect you, and not only that, but everyone around you, whether they know you or not, will want to help you. It's okay to ask for help. It's okay to say that I'm struggling. It's just a matter of you've got to understand that you have to be the one that takes that step first. That's the hardest thing is, if you are struggling, to even acknowledge that there's a problem, well then it's going to be even more difficult, I think, to help pull apart, piece by piece, until you get to a solution, which there may not be a solution out there, but it's at least you're. You're breaking down that problem incrementally where you can start to address and kind of fixate on some of these other ones that will help you either appease yourself or get through this stuff. My own way of coping through this stress was I had to stop myself from filing or submitting resumes and and I would spend hours, cheryl, I would spend hours on LinkedIn and these other just rabbit hole pages of where jobs are. I mean, I had I actually set screen time on my phone that I would block off. I would stop it because I would do it in the car. I would do it, you know, and I'm at the dad, I mean anywhere. I was so fixated on trying to find a job that I was forgetting what was happening around me. Why did I transition in the first place? That's right to spend more time with my family, so it's. But it was baby steps on how to get to where I'm fortunate out, you know, and I I know that there are people that may not get as lucky as I am, and I I'm here to help as best I can. Right, I don't have the solution, I don't have the answer for everyone, but I know that I can at least put things in perspective of having a conversation with somebody that that might have another direction to address to you, but the things I tell people, if they're, if they're struggling, it's okay, let's talk about it. What is the problem, right? What are you struggling with? Can we, can we, can we put some tangential feeling on some of this stuff? Or is it all just a nebulous thing that there's an, an unidentified, unidentifiable amount of pressure? Where's it? Where's that coming from? Right, the guy that I, that I talked to, that pressure was only coming from me. It was only internalized that I was feeling the pressure, which was a huge release to hear me say yeah, I think you're right. I mean, it was like a was like this immediate identification.

Cheryl Cross: 22:51

Did it help when you realize that Aaron Did it lift any weight off your shoulders.

Aaron Ffrench: 22:56

Yes or no, right? So yes, because now I had a target, now I had, now I understood what the problem was it? It didn't solve the problem, right. It didn't solve why that pressure was built up in the first place, but but it did help me acknowledge the fact that I was doing this to myself. It did help me, like, come to terms that I, I was my own enemy that was defeating my purpose, right, which was which was silly, I mean it's. I got a big smile on my face because I'm. It was so fundamental that it was myself. It wasn't my family, it wasn't anybody else, like the Air Force wasn't telling me to leave, yet my family's not the one hounding me to get a job. It was me. So that I became fixated on that job. I'm getting fixated on the pressure to find the job. I became fixated on the pressure to provide for my family because I needed a job and in all this thing just kind of snowballed Into this anxiety and stress that that it took me. It took me down, it was, it was rough and I I think that I mean I posted a little bit about that on my LinkedIn, like you said, I

Cheryl Cross: 24:15

That's how I found you.

Aaron Ffrench: 24:16

Yeah, I had some. I had some people reach out something I knew, something I didn't. And why I? Why I'm saying why I said yes to talk to you, is that I Know everyone's going through this right? There's no, I mean that very few people do this. Right, some people will take a job and this is not. This is not to to Negate anybody's reasons for taking a job. That people take jobs for different reasons. Right, because they love the opportunity. They love, they love the mission that, whatever that opportunity presents, they need it for a. They need a job because they need the money. They need a job because they can't they can't do idol like I can't. But that reasons, those reasons you have to figure out what they are for yourself, like which. Don't take a job for the wrong reason. Don't take a job Because you told yourself you need that, when it's not really yourself saying that's really why I want it. But I, I enjoy working with people, I enjoy solving problems and I enjoy Having something to do that's for a common goal, right, and that's not. Everybody's got that and that's okay. But Individually they've got it. You've got to figure that out.

Cheryl Cross: 25:26

You've been an outstanding guest. Thank you so much and I'm thrilled. You know, not only two, three people in the 100 or so people that I've reached out to so far have said I'm sorry I can't be on your podcast, but you said yes so quickly. I was stunned. So you have a lot to share and I don't want to stop you. But it sounds like and I've just watched you over the last few days I mean, it sounds like you're really wanting to give back, and I always ask this at the end of a segment Is there some way that people can get a hold of you? And for those who are just listening, not watching on YouTube, because this is a audio and visual podcast, could you spell your name and tell them how they can get a hold of you if they would like to reach out, maybe get some information or get a mentoring session, if you're open to that? Absolutely.

Aaron Ffrench: 26:19

Fundamentally, I've always taken every job that I've had as if I'm not training my replacement, I'm not doing it right. So that's kind of driven a lot of things in my own leadership style, my own personal style, and to give back, I think that I have more time and opportunity than I've ever had. I've already joined a couple organizations local here that that helps supporting vets In different ways, not necessarily transition, but and I I would love to Just to have a conversation and I think, if you're local San Antonio, I'd love to have a coffee with you. So again, so it's Aaron French, french with two F's. If you know another French out there, I might be related. It's pretty, pretty unique. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Facebook. Reach out and I I hope to I can share more stories. There's a lot, there's a lot to talk about and I'll say this just just know that if not me, talk to somebody. They're there to help. Yeah.

Cheryl Cross: 28:08

I think half the battle is finding the language and giving yourself permission. So once you find the language on how to ask, you can walk into Someone's office, be it a commander, be it a lateral, be it someone junior, enlisted, whatever. Wherever you are in the Matrix of the military or wherever you are in your thought process of transitioning into another career after the military Finding the language, giving yourself the permission to be vulnerable. I see this is the biggest chasm for people. There's a lot of pride and there's a lot of fear. So if it's not within your ranks, if it's not within your organization, know that there's outside organizations that can help a lot of veteran support organizations, your military family support center. There is always someone that you can reach out to quickly and get into the right directions. But it's up to you to ask for help, and a lot of that is figuring out what to ask for. And sometimes, aaron, I wish more people would just say I don't know what I need, I don't know what I'm going to do, and for years I put those people down. I wrote an entire book that will be launched at some point on salary negotiation, because I heard so many people say, when I asked, what are your salary expectations? I don't know. And I thought that's right, I have to fix this. So again, that's part of the threat, so that's part of that part of that transition of like that's, that's that's grown-uping, right.

Aaron Ffrench: 29:31

That's like figuring out how to really be a grown-up and understand what's going on, figuring out how to really be a grown-up and understand and grow, because we in the military that is a factor that we never had to talk, worry about, right. So, what are you worth, right? What are you worth and what are you willing to say that you're worth? Well, there's, that's like you said. That has another whole conversation. Um, because there are, there are a thousand variables that go into it, but the one that matters is what you want to get out of whatever you're going for. So, um, anyway. So yeah, absolutely, it's all of it. That's right, that's right after the military.

Cheryl Cross: 30:07

I don't want to, I don't want to cut you off anymore, but we've we've kind of hit our time. Thank you so much. You are invaluable. I know that we're going to be keeping in warm touch through linkedin. People are obviously going to be reaching out to you and adding you on linkedin so they get to know you. A lot of people are listening to the podcast. We're about 30 days out. I've got about seven or eight episodes already. You'll be in that matrix at some point after Um, after all those launch. But I just want to say thanks. You're awareness and your vulnerability and your honesty are all valued here. So any last alibis before I close out the segment.

Aaron Ffrench: 30:45

No, cheryl, thanks for the thanks for the invite and and you know I'm back at you, but thanks for Thanks providing a platform to share stories, right, we? This is. This should be what taps is about. It shouldn't be about a force watching a slideshow. It should be about hearing every, every different story that you can, because everyone's got a little bit different. So the big questions you need to ask yourself I'll just close with that, or are you know what? What do I want to do after I retire? Where do I want to live? And then what? What kind? After you figure out that, like, well, maybe the industry is a conversation and into the job, but but in order to work your time backwards, you really need to figure out where you want to end up. Um, at least temporarily, or at least as a starting point, but then really, what you want to do, what kind of life do you want to have after the military? It's one size does not fit all and and I'm fairly confident to say that your first job will not be your last job when you get out, not from my own experience, but just from everything that I've heard from everybody else. So we'll see where my path goes and I'm excited to be here and excited to be a part of this, and thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Cheryl Cross: 31:55

You've been a pleasure, thank you. We're going to wrap up the soup segment. We're going to be heading into an expert segment and somebody who has either an influential or recruiting or hiring manager view, maybe even a career consultant. It's always a game shot, we don't know. But I want to say thank you. My name is Cheryl Cross. You're listening to the military, to civilian career transition power hour, and we'll be right back. Hello and welcome back. I'm Cheryl Cross and you are listening to the military, to civilian career transition power hour, and today we have an expert, somebody who knows so much about resumes and actually podcasting. She had a podcast for many years the resume storyteller podcast. She says it's an archive so you can go and check it out, but I'm super excited to have her on my podcast. Her name is Virginia Franco. Hi Virginia, how are you today?

Virginia Franco: 33:00

Hi, very good, Thank you for having me.

Cheryl Cross: 33:02

Cheryl, I'm, I'm so excited when I when I found you on LinkedIn and then I reached out to you and I said I really want to be, I want to pick your brain, I want to ask you questions because in every hour of every episode, we have just one expert and I knew, just reading your posts and some of your LinkedIn information, that you would really be able to disseminate Some of the things that they could walk away and take home, like today or whenever they're ready to write their resume. So I'm just going to let you launch, because this is your wheelhouse, so go for it.

Virginia Franco: 33:39

Oh gosh, where do I start? Um, yeah, I um. Thank you for saying that about my content. I do aim to share actionable Advice so that you can walk away with ideas understanding how people read and how that informs your writing, as I feel like that that education helps not just with resume writing these. These are the techniques that I use, and a lot of cases can be applied to writing emails, to doing slide decks for presentations all of it.

Cheryl Cross: 34:08

So you're a storyteller. I know this just because we started with stories when we first started talking, before we hit the record button. You said something to me before you said Everybody has a career story and I want to help them boil that back, go into more detail on that. A lot of people.

Virginia Franco: 34:26

I feel like sort of the. I guess one of the biggest mistakes that I see people make when they're writing their own resumes is they focus on this is what I did day in and day out. These are my responsibilities. That's what if information does not distinguish you from, or differentiate you from, your competition? Your stories are what, what, what do differentiate you and they're what make you memorable. So I and everyone has a story, and so what I do when I walk my client through their career to understand what I need to include on their documents, is I will ask them Okay, what do things look like at your job before and what do they look like after? And what was your role in getting things from before to after? And why is that in the big picture, why is that relevant to the company, to the team, to the customer, etc. That is your micro story. So that's the story of that, that particular experience. You do that over and over again and nine times out of ten, you will find that there are common threads throughout each experience and then that becomes your, your brand, and that's what you. That's what you include in the summary at the very top, but by focusing on the before and after in each role. That is how you write a resume. That that is not responsibility space, but it's achievement space. It will. It's a series of micro stories that will really differentiate you.

Cheryl Cross: 35:54

You talk about. The storytelling is sort of breaking things down and defining and then redefining so that you can put something in the summary, and I've never heard that approach before. But it's incredibly value valuable because it is. It takes a lot of Well, it takes a. It's not just something you're going to sit at your computer and pop out. You have to do a lot of thinking yeah, it is, it is an yeah. Do you have exercises? I don't um.

Virginia Franco: 36:21

What I do, though, is how I craft that paragraph is, once I have heard the person's you know, experience by experience story, I would go to the job posting, because you're always writing with the end goal and the job target in mind, and I scroll down to. Usually, it's towards the bottom of the post, where they have the must-have requirements, and when you look at five, six postings, there's usually some commonality. That's the kind of stuff you need to lead off with um in that summary, so what I do is I weave in, I align what they've asked for and what the job posting is asked for in terms of must-have with the details about you from your story.

Cheryl Cross: 37:00

Interesting. You know, ai has taken over the world. And is really entering into resume writing and I spoke with somebody recently that said you know, I just have ai do it. And I took a look at the resume and it was excellent, but it looked like Ai did it. I did it Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. So you, you probably can see those too, and I know hiring managers are. I know recruiters are pretty savvy for that. If you had a client that said you know, I I'm really relying a lot on ai because of the amount of jobs that I'm applying to, I want ai, or my robot, to do this for me. What? What do you tell them? How do you direct them?

Virginia Franco: 37:43

So I think ai is a great place to start when you have writer's block, but you need to keep in mind that you're probably going to do a lot of heavy editing ai. So you could say you could take a job posting and say, write a summary section of my resume for this, but? But what it is doing it is pulling all of the, the junk that's on for the internet and Pulling it together to make your summary and and there's a lot of garbage out there. So it's sort of garbage, didn't garbage out, um. What I see that to me is a telltale sign that you're you are that this was written by ai is that the summary section is really just full of adjectives, um, and even if those adjectives are true and they probably are you probably are, um, you know superior and have a in your season and you have a strong track record, you know Of results. Those are all probably very accurate, but everyone is using the same terms to describe themselves, and so they lost their punch. So what I would rather do is replace adjectives with little bits of information that are specific to your career history. That way, if the reader looks at nothing else except for that headline and that summary, which is what they. Those are the sort of the first two areas that people scan. They are clear on what you're targeting, why it makes sense that you're a good fit, and then they also know a couple things about you that will make you Make you stand out. That's gonna, that are gonna make you memorable. I agree sort of it's a principle of journalism that you know, my undergrads and journalism a lot of this is Stuff that I learned way back when, when I first trained to write for the news.

Cheryl Cross: 39:14

Do you still write for the news? Are you still a creative writer or investigative writer?

Virginia Franco: 39:19

Uh, no, I mean. No, I focused solely on job search. But what I remember learning is that Every news story needs a headline and it needs a lead paragraph, and without those, you've lost them. But when people do read them, they're clear on what the story is going to be about and what they want to come back to when you have more time, um, so bringing those two components into your resume Can help to replicate that behavior.

Cheryl Cross: 39:45

So you talk about capturing someone's attention and now these days, because of the ATS's, which are called applicant tracking systems, are doing a lot of the heavy lifting for recruiters, or Personal sorcerers, which are not wizards, they're actually in the recruiting department and they're sourcing your information and sometimes pre screening you. Those are humans, but the the more we integrate AI into the recruiting process, I believe those Robots are going to be looking for your information. How has resume writing changed since large language models are integrated into these big companies, and how does that change your approach with clients?

Virginia Franco: 40:28

You know technology has has always been a part not always in the 20, late 20th and 21st century. It's always been part of the recruiting process. What I think is important to remember with ATS, applicant tracking software systems and all of these tools, is that they are used to help the decision makers to file and organize all of the information that they have, and so what I usually do is I will do a deep dive of the keywords associated with a specific role, and then I make sure to weave them in where it's natural into the experience, but I really I prefer to focus on writing for the human versus the boss, because, except for maybe and really really big companies, there is usually a person at the other end who is looking at these. You just need to make sure that your resume is written in a way that the software can parse the information correctly. Where I have seen, though, where keywords can make a really, really big impact and I've been focusing on it very heavily in the past couple of years is on your LinkedIn, because we know that decision makers are out there. They're using LinkedIn to search for you, and I've seen where putting keywords in a couple of key sections on your LinkedIn can help you to. It's one of the things that the algorithm appreciates and it uses it to help you show up higher in search and more frequently in search, and that way, your LinkedIn is working for you, while you're also using it to network with other people.

Cheryl Cross: 42:05

It's so important to do that and that's why I advocate for starting your LinkedIn profile three years prior to leaving the military. And, for those of you who are already out, make sure that your resume, even though you're making them very individual for the jobs that you're looking at, make sure that the boilerplate of it has all the essential stuff. If you worked on software or specific hardware, if there's things that you have, make sure you spell them out and put their acronyms the search engines. It's really about what the recruiter is putting in there to search for or it's searching specifically against the job requisition. You bring up a good point and I don't think that's really realized. And tracking systems are mostly used as data houses and I think people, when they hear that, they're like, oh, it's this big. No, there's people. We, as recruiters, use this as a tool so that A we're compliant with federal and state laws, that we ask the same questions to you that we do everybody else. I mean there's a lot more baked into an applicant tracking system than people think. It's not just about finding you. Finding the awareness to people about LinkedIn is so important, because I'm even if you looked at my LinkedIn and if you looked at any of the resumes or any of the proposals I write for clients. They're probably a lot different. I think it's hard personally to put my 20 plus years of experience in a way that's not overwhelming. How would you recommend a client? Do that, so that it's not it's like you're fighting against it. Should it be the resume or should it be LinkedIn?

Virginia Franco: 43:46

So to me, it depends on what your target is. So if you're a job seeker, you're writing your LinkedIn with that end target in mind, and so the first thing that I always recommend people do is use LinkedIn. They have a couple of tools that are really helpful. One is the career explorer tool and one is a resume building tool, and you get more bang for your buck with the resume tool. If you use premium and I'm fairly certain the LinkedIn still offers a year of free LinkedIn for military members and regardless, anyone can get 30 days free. But you use that to put in the job title that you're targeting and literally a list of keywords will pop up. Job postings on LinkedIn have to list 10 skills. So what I'll do is I will use all those tools and I'll come up with a list of you know, it looks like 100 different keywords, and then I will sort through them. I'll pick out the top 50 and I make sure to weave them into the headline at the top as part of the job postings and I make sure that the skills and endorsement section at the bottom have that. And then, in terms of picking and choosing what to include if a role or a part of a role isn't relevant to that target, then you don't include it on there. So you're writing within the lens of what the end goal is, does that?

Cheryl Cross: 45:07

help it does, thank you. I think I'm going to be working on mine today, so I might have to call you a little bit later, but some people aren't.

Virginia Franco: 45:15

you might be, you're not actively looking, but you still want to be considered as a top candidate. So in that case what you do is you write your current. Your current experience sort of explains what you were brought on to do, but you're still writing as if you're a strong ambassador of that organization and so, especially if you're in a role that is public facing or you are in any way interfacing with other people and they are using that profile for things beyond job search, then you're certainly not going to write about your experience and throw a company under the bus, for instance, or talk about how things are a hot mess and you fix them. But you can speak to what you're brought on to do, what your role is about, and maybe give a little blurb about what that particular department or organization, what their mission is I like that you say that I've heard so many stories of whoa on how people were mistreated and it's like on one end I just, I like listening.

Cheryl Cross: 46:21

It's just tough. Not, it's tough not to do it, especially if you've really been wronged. You know you talk about it in the resume. It bleeds through on everything. If you're unhappy with a former employer, fix it.

Virginia Franco: 46:35

Yeah, and practice your speech as to why you're looking to leave, because if there is a hint of emotion or pain, people don't know you well enough to know whether you're trusted or not, and so you need to have an answer, or a response that's short, sweet to the point and it's forward focused.

Cheryl Cross: 46:58

Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. I think that we can't talk about that enough. So let's reiterate that point, because for those of you who probably are going to get out of the military and have a few jobs before you settle in on one, that is really a career career. Yeah, the military probably did you wrong. That first job or skill bridge program probably didn't hire you or did you wrong, but the recruiters don't want to hear it. I don't care how friendly they are, and I always thought, gosh, it's because I'm such a nice person and I've asked them all these questions. We spent an hour on the phone. Well, let me give you a litmus test. So if you spend less than five hours with somebody, don't complain to them, and by complaining I mean do not share your unhappiness. Complain to your therapist, complain to your spouse, complain to your parents. Complain to your older children, not your younger kids. Complain to people or your mentor, but do not complain to someone who's looking at you for a job. I don't care how horrifying it was, they don't want to hear it. That's right.

Virginia Franco: 48:03

Yeah, because the intent behind the why are you looking question is not to really know what happened. It's to understand why you are interested in them. And so talk about what it is about this role, this company, the culture that appeals to you. And again, you're one quick sentence as to why you're looking, and then this is why I'm so excited about this- particular opportunity.

Cheryl Cross: 48:31

It takes practice, friends, it really does, it does.

Virginia Franco: 48:35

You have to practice it, because when you're upset, yeah, it's easy to it shows. And again, this is not a good look, it will not get you any points.

Cheryl Cross: 48:43

So you're not just a resume writer, you're a coach, you're a guru.

Virginia Franco: 48:47

A little bit of an anecdotal coach. Yeah, I have a background in my. Yeah, I have a degree in social work as well, so I did that for a couple years before I pivoted and journalism.

Cheryl Cross: 48:58

So you're an investigative journalist, you're a social worker and now you're writing resumes. And it looks like, because of the amount of time you've been doing it, that you really love it. What do you love about?

Virginia Franco: 49:10

this, I still have the coolest stories and it is so exciting for me to tell stories where maybe the dots don't seem to connect at first glance or it's sort of a complicated tale. And showing helping people shine on on paper and on screen is my favorite thing to do.

Cheryl Cross: 49:28

How do you feel when they call and say I got the job, there's nothing better, nothing better.

Virginia Franco: 49:34

And now I'm really happy when I find out they got found on LinkedIn too.

Cheryl Cross: 49:38

Right, right.

Virginia Franco: 49:39

Yeah.

Cheryl Cross: 49:41

How are some other ways that people are? I mean, I am a super user on LinkedIn. I found you through LinkedIn. I think Marisol Maloney suggested that I speak to you.

Virginia Franco: 49:50

who's just a rock star, she's wonderful, we met in San Diego in the spring. Oh, okay. Was that at the MIC it was no, it was the Career Thought Leaders.

Cheryl Cross: 50:00

Conference. Okay, yes, she's making the rounds. I knew her when she was here in Hawaii active duty. She told me. She told me I wanted to be a recruiter and I was like, really You're so talented, why would you want to know? I didn't say that. But I really watched her grow and shine and she is. She is just tenacious, yeah.

Virginia Franco: 50:19

Just tenacious.

Cheryl Cross: 50:20

Okay, Enough about Marisol, let's talk about you. You've been writing resumes since 08 and you're going to continue. You've had several years of a podcast. You're giving back. What's the future hold for you? Are you just continuing to morph as as the business morphs, because technology is being added? Is this threatening? You know the robots are going to take away your job. What's the future for you?

Virginia Franco: 50:44

I'm going to keep on doing what I'm doing and I'm going to keep on taking that technology that might or might not be threatening and figure out how I can use it to improve what I do and help others to improve their job search. I think AI is the greatest tool ever for for doing research, for interviewing, for all of that.

Cheryl Cross: 51:01

I agree, I use my robot every day. It helps me, but I become too reliant on it. I just did a speech here locally on AI and business and I was very transparent. You know, I've used it to really kind of coordinate my brain. I had been writing a book for many years but it wasn't until I poured into, you know, the AI and asked it specific questions to help me kind of get on track. And once I did I was on fire. But it just was this. It's like I had an editor sitting with me or a co-writer sitting with me, prompting me asking me questions.

Virginia Franco: 51:40

And what you said is important. The more specific you are with your ask, the more you can refine them.

Cheryl Cross: 51:45

The more powerful of a tool it is and that is the currency of our day right now. Virginia. This is truly the like people are like. So what prompt did you use? You know, chat, gptpromptscom is probably. I mean.

Virginia Franco: 52:00

I don't know that.

Cheryl Cross: 52:02

Yeah, there's well, there's tons of them, and I don't know that that's a real website. I'm sure it is. But, the prompts. That's what everyone says. What did you do and what were your prompts? How did you ask it? And I think you know for those of you listening who don't use AI and a lot of you you know you simply can't, because when you're sitting in a skiff and you're or you're going home, you're trying to do the bare minimum to try and get out of the military right For the maximum. If you're my listener, you're doing the very best. You're three years ahead and you're reading my book and you're taking the advice and you're listening to these experts. But some of you don't have the opportunity to do that because either retirement has been forced on you or separation has been medboarded. You're being medboarded out. So things happen very quickly and as you're out processing from the military, you're supposed to be getting a job and, as everybody will remind you, a job, getting a job is a job. Getting a job is a full-time job. So starting it in advance, kind of carving this up, eating the elephant one bite at a time I've heard all of these analogies Looking at someone like Virginia to get a start and get that good hygiene so that when you are, even if you're in your last PCS, you're still developing skills. You're going through that last few years. You're getting your certifications. Maybe you're able to apply them. So this all would be very relevant for a resume and adding to it as you go. Now, does that mean that you give up secret information? No, if you have a clearance, let's talk about that as we end, because I know I've recruited very highly cleared people. I've worked within the DOD and outside the DOD. I bet a lot of the folks you have are cleared. How do you handle information? How do you explain information that really the public shouldn't know?

Virginia Franco: 53:54

A lot of times the exact details of the mission or the challenge are not as relevant as how you went about solving it, how you went about improving processes and the results or the outcomes and benefits of it. So I try to focus on that. But the answer is it depends on each unique challenge and a lot of times they can't even tell me, and so I have to talk through those sorts of questions to get to the story.

Cheryl Cross: 54:29

And it is appealing back the onion layer, so valuable, to be working with somebody who's been doing this a long time, who loves what she does. Virginia, I know folks listening are gonna wanna get in touch with you through LinkedIn or otherwise. Why don't you? This is mostly a listen to podcast, even though they're seeing us on YouTube. Hi, everybody, hi. Why don't you go ahead and explain how folks find you and spell your name and give websites and things like that Really quickly.

Virginia Franco: 54:57

Can I add one more thing about the clearance piece. Yeah, if the job posting does not ask for clearance, don't advertise it, because that is not relevant to the target. So what I always do is I will put the actual clearance sort of at the top right below the contact information and then I remove it when it's not necessary. Not all jobs require it, right? Third party defense contractors. That's what I wanted to put that as a design In terms of how you can find me. My website is my name, it's Virginia Franco Resume. My LinkedIn is Virginia Franco Resume Writer, and then I'm on all the other socials as well.

Cheryl Cross: 55:33

You've been a pleasure and I was real excited to talk with you today. Thank you so so much Thank you. I'm gonna dig into your archives a bit more Resume Storyteller podcast. I'm sorry you closed it but I'm thrilled that you're a guest on all the hot podcast working with military to civilian career transition and I'm thrilled to have you here today. Any last alibis before we sign off?

Virginia Franco: 55:56

Not at all. You asked a great question. Thank you very much.

Cheryl Cross: 56:00

Well, thank you, coach. I appreciate that I may have to. I'm gonna have her look at my resume. All right, my name's Cheryl Cross. You're listening to the military to civilian career transition power hour. This was our expert segment. After a brief break, we're going to be talking to someone who's been out of the military between one and four years. We'll be right back and we're back. Thanks so much for sticking around through the first and second segments of the show. We are in our third segment and this person we have a very special guest today. This person is out at least one year, but not more than four. I'd like to invite you to join us and we'll be right back. We're gonna be right back. We're gonna be right back. We're gonna be right back. We're gonna be right back. So thank you for being here, but not more than four. I'd like to introduce you to the former base commander of Scott Air Force Base, currently in the civilian workforce and a leadership coach who figured out what he wanted to do during his last few years of service because of a brain tumor. Please welcome Scott.

J. Scot Heathman: 57:07

Heathman.

Cheryl Cross: 57:08

Hi Scott, Hello, thank you it's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor to have you. Interesting but, I think, so impactful, because you're doing something that all of us need, especially post COVID. But you learned that you had these skills and wanted to give them back because of something that happened during COVID. Go ahead and tell us your story.

J. Scot Heathman: 57:32

Yeah, it was pretty interesting. I was actually stationed at Fairchild Air Force Base when we were involved. My wife and I were involved in a car accident. We got hit from behind and through the series of them looking at my neck, I had a little bit of a whiplash injury. You know they do MRI and everything like that. A few days later, when I got a call from my flight doctor, he very kindly asked me if I was aware that I have a brain tumor. And I tell you that's not a call that you get every day. It was a very strange thing to hear Serial and very deadly serious at the same time. Right and this was back in 2019 is when I was first diagnosed, in January of 2019. So, as you can imagine, over the course of time you know several visits with neurosurgeons and neurologists and things like that, all kinds of specialist visits. We ended up watching this thing for about a year because at that time it really wasn't affecting anything and again, to that point I had no idea it was even there and we still don't have an idea of how long it was there in my in my head. But about a year later I had already moved to Scott Air Force Base. I took command in the summer of 2019. But around January of 2019, things started to change within me and it did start to affect me. I could sense that I was getting some numbness in my face and a little bit of a limp, and the doctors are like, yeah, we need to do something. So we had talked about options before and I said let's go ahead and schedule a surgery. And we had the schedule, had the surgery on in February of 2020. The deputy commander basically flew up to become the commander of the base and I went through an 11 hour surgery and then what would become a about a four month healing therapy process to get back. You know some of the basics that I had to retain or regain after that surgery walk. I had to relearn how to walk and you know work on my speech you know the little things that we all take for granted became very difficult for me and it took about four months, but eventually I did get back into the job and commanded all the way up to a summer of 2021. And then I moved over to 18th Air Force and it was the deputy commander there for about a year and that was the job the last job I had right before I retired.

Cheryl Cross: 1:00:05

Your story is remarkable. Not only did you learn resilience, but you are now teaching resilience. So, using your personal experience, how are you leading executives? I know that you're working in the C suite because I've checked out. I see your clients, who they are how do you use your personal situation, which could be so tragic and you know, I'm just sitting here going. I'm so glad this isn't me this terrible. How do you then flip the script and then turn this into a coaching practice?

J. Scot Heathman: 1:00:39

Thank God I had four months to at least four months to heal up right, I could say I'm still healing. But it really gave me some time to think because we all deal with adversity. So in the leadership and development world I don't think we talk enough about adversity. And how does one face maneuver through that, get better? It's not necessarily about the story, it's really what do you learn through that process? That's what I've come to know about how we build resilience. I can't teach you how to be more resilient from a standpoint of you never going through adversity. I do believe everything that we go through as far as what we call adversity it could be the loss of a loved one, it could be a job you didn't get, it just could be something bad happening that you didn't expect. If the event itself is not always the important factor here, it's the way we maneuver through that and keep looking forward. I think that's where the learning of resilience really comes into play here. That's something I had a lot of time to think about In my mind. I developed a blueprint for that to be a little bit more proactive in how we think about resilience. I'm never going to give you a silver bullet here to avoid everything adverse in your life right. But what I can help leaders with and what I can help managers with, is how to face it a little bit better, because these are emotional events. I use a combination of certifications that I've earned while I was in the Air Force whether it be emotional intelligence, different resilience courses I've been through, and my own personal experience To look at leadership development not just from the hard skills point of view, but let's tackle the soft skills, which I actually think are the harder skills to tackle, the ones that most leaders these days are really struggling with, because they're hard to talk about, they're emotional. These are tough conversations to have with people. Relationships are messy. I like to say leadership would be so easy if it wasn't for the people right. Leading is tough. It is tough. You never stop learning. I think there's a curiosity aspect that must stay with a leader. If they're going to get better, they need to be curious about not only just the weaknesses that maybe come to the surface or that they have some self awareness of, but also where are they utilizing their strengths? And I think through all of that I've been able to talk with leaders, either through coaching, through speaking, motivational speaking, or maybe it's just a large facilitation of training. Through those three different avenues I've been very successful to talk to organizations and I can see the aha moments come about and, honestly, that is what really serves me well is I love to see that aha moment in a person, in a team, in an organization, and that's that's where I want to be and that's why I decided to go down this path in the first place.

Cheryl Cross: 1:04:05

Before I started recording, we had a chance to talk and you said something that I'm going to pull you back to Mission first versus people first. I want you to talk about how you've created something new from what you saw, because think of our audience. They're either currently a service member, thinking of what they're going to do or creating a plan. That's the whole goal of this podcast. Hear these stories so you don't walk in these same pits or holes or you take this bridge or you take this tunnel. Whatever, what made you think I'm going to do people first versus mission first. Go into that and unpack that for me.

J. Scot Heathman: 1:04:49

You know every person that served in the military, or even gotten one promotion, or just made it through boot camp, whatever it may be. We don't do these things by ourselves. You know, there's a lot of men and women that are either mentoring, coaching, leading, guiding, tough love, you know, giving us some tough level. We need it. I'm the product of many, many great leaders that have poured a lot into me. I was first introduced to the idea of servant leadership when I was an executive officer to a base commander, when I was very young, I didn't really even know what the term was and, funny enough, when I went after my master's degree, I got a concentration in servant leadership, because I was, for the first time, I could see myself as I am, that kind of person that enjoys service to others. I want to get better at that, though, and that's why I went after that, and through understanding servant leadership, I started meeting others who very much led or operated the same way. You know, again, we had same operating systems, if you will right, and when you start surrounding yourself with folks like that boy, it's hard not to take all that in and just keep driving. And then, years later, I had met an amazing woman. Her name is Claude Silver and she works for VaynerMedia. She is the chief heart officer and what I love about Claude is she is a people first leader. And when I was going to school at the Navy War College up in Rhode Island their headquarters is out in New York City and I had sent her a LinkedIn message one day because I came to just there was something interesting about her title. She's not the CFO, the chief financial officer. She's not the chief operating officer, she's the chief heart officer and the number two in the company behind the CEO. And I just basically sent her a note saying where did you get this title and, should you ever lose your job, can I have it someday, because this sounds absolutely fascinating to me? And I said I have to learn how she's been able to make this so crystal clear that it's people first, not mission first. And she responded and she invited me out to New York and I shadowed her for an entire day and she showed me what it's like being a people first leader and she also talked to me about how I could pull that into the military. Even in a very structured hierarchical organization, there are all kinds of great ways that I can lead with a people first mentality and probably reach heights that I even didn't think we could reach. And she was right. Ever since our meeting, we keep in touch quite a bit. I've even had her out to one of the bases to speak to the airmen and it led me on this path of you know what. There's not even a debate in my mind. It's got to be people first. It doesn't mean that I don't worry about the mission. Right? Every CEO, every chief operating officer out there, they're going to say no, no, we got to make her quarterly earning statement or we got to. You know, meet this deadline. You don't have to tell me about meeting deadlines or getting the missions done. You know, having flown in the Air Force for 20 years, I understand what it means to get the mission done. That actually didn't worry me as much, because we did. We focused on training, we focused on employing our forces, we focused on getting better. We weren't afraid to embrace the red and see what we could get better at. But the people aspect, that's where all the time wasted came from, whether it was relationships that weren't working out between two organizations or inter-organizational relationships, whether it was organizational culture that wasn't right. Maybe it was subordinates thinking that their bosses just don't care. I kept thinking about Maya Angelou's quote about you know, people will never remember what you say or what you do, but they will always remember how you made them feel. Right. I'm paraphrasing that to a degree here, but that last statement they will always remember about how you made them feel. That should be at the heart of every leader out there. And I'm telling you, if you can get that right, you are going to see performance go through the roof every time, and so I focus a lot of training towards that idea of how do you get after that? You know, is it relationships? Is it better communication? Is it active listening? Notice, again, these are not hard skills. These are what are considered staff skills. But again I'll say, I think these are some of the hardest ones to train and get good at in a leader's career.

Cheryl Cross: 1:10:09

How does resilience marry servant leadership? How do you blend the two?

J. Scot Heathman: 1:10:19

What was interesting when I started telling my story because I didn't tell a lot of people right after my diagnosis. You know, I had to kind of live with this thing, at least with the knowing of that. I had a brain tumor for a good year before we actually did anything about it. I didn't really have a need to tell people because, well, nothing had changed physically in my world. The only thing I couldn't do was I couldn't fly. Not a lot of people kind of question why the deputy commander of a base is not flying. We didn't fly that often anyway at that level. What I started to do, though, as we got closer to the surgery, I knew that people would notice when the base commander is gone. It is funny to hear the conspiracy theories. When I got back into the job some of the conspiracy theories that people thought about after not seeing me for four months, I heard everything from. I heard you were fired, sir. I didn't know you had a brain tumor, or that I lost a job to something else, or that I got moved. I mean, it was really funny when you think about it. But after telling my story about what happened, what I started to notice was that people started to tell their story. This is an important lesson. We talk about vulnerability. I want to use this word for a second because it's going to relate back to the resilience piece. When leaders are able to show a little bit of vulnerability, interesting things start to happen to the organization. People start to see the leader as human. When they start to see them as human, they realize that they're capable of having some of the same stressors and strains in their life as maybe that young 18-year-old or that new onboarded employee that tends to open up the conversation, or at least the appetite to have these conversations so wide. What I started to learn very, very quickly was if I could share my story. We're going to see some people start to share their stories. Yeah, we may find out some things that folks need some help that we didn't think needed the help, but they're more willing to respond to getting that help or even maybe taking that step and checking themselves in somewhere to get the help that they desperately so need when leaders don't do that and, like I said, you don't need to share every deep, dark secret to be a vulnerable leader. What I like to say is hey, every once in a while, maybe talking out loud is actually a good thing. For instance, you go into a staff meeting let's say your weekly staff meeting and people can tell that you're in a different mood. Maybe you're always kind of go lucky all the time and they see that something's wrong. If you don't say a word and you're just kind of acting the mood that you have, people start to walk on eggshells. The higher you are in the leadership chain, the faster those emotions flow down the chain. What I have learned that if I walk in in a little different state, if I just tell people, hey, I'm a little bit off today, was working through a couple of things last night. Don't take it personal, but I do want to be here. Just by saying that much, you have completely changed the dynamics in the organization, or maybe the small group of people that see you each and every day, and it is now becoming more positive atmosphere and an atmosphere full of trust, because you basically have just given people permission to talk. I believe that's what also builds our resilience, our ability to talk, our ability to open up, our ability to share, even if it's just a minor thing like that, when you give the organization permissions and I'll use the air quotes. To do things like that. You are building levels of trust that you couldn't just by not doing any of that. I saw at first hand the levels of trust go up within our organization when leaders started to share on that level of capacity, so it was amazing to just see the changes happen.

Cheryl Cross: 1:14:56

I think of resilience as a Kevlar vest. I think of it being tough. I think, how hard did I work, how much did I grind, how much did I sacrifice? To me, resilience is that shell that I've created in order to be impenetrable. I am bulletproof. So you're saying that vulnerability, you're cracking the shell, that showing and exposing yourself, let's say, sharing parts of yourself. Not everything is really the key to resilience. How did that work we're not talking about again? I don't want to know everything about your military career, but I'm curious. I've sat through meetings with generals, with colonels, and there's a protocol and it's not kumbaya, it is we're going to get this meeting done. There's this brief and, sergeant Major, you're going to do this. Colonel, so-and-so you're going to do this. The general's going to walk in at 0500. There's no room, for I'm just having a really bad day. How did you do this?

J. Scot Heathman: 1:16:02

How did you do this? You're right, there is a protocol and there certainly was times when you absolutely couldn't do anything like that. I mean, let's be realistic here. I had to really really pick and choose when was the right time to do it and who was around me when I was ready to show that kind of vulnerability. Like I said, in a lot of those instances it was usually just my front office, maybe the 10 of us that work within the wing headquarters at that time. But again, I found it so important that they realized that I am a human being just like them, because I don't want them growing up thinking that there's no way in the military had zero time to talk about any of that, because some of the toughest people I know in the military whether they're special operators or steels or whatever they will tell you they do talk about this stuff because there is a level of trust that you need to get to with your people to perform at the highest levels. It's not about being the best or number one and that's who gets recruited. It's about recruiting those that you can trust the most when the situation warrants right. Yeah, there may be times when we had to prep for a four star visit and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force is coming. This is probably not the time for me or anybody else to really come full forward with a lot of their feelings. However, there certainly is a minute or two within that visit where I could pull an airman aside that I saw while we were showcasing, maybe, the clinic. Let's say to the Chief of Staff when I just saw an airman who wasn't on their game, I didn't think anything of it. As we were walking by, I'd put my arm on them and just on their shoulder and just say, hey, are you doing all right? Even if they gave me that kind of teenager like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine sir, I say tell you what? Hey, email me later today, let's just chat for a little bit. That 15 second interaction, that's where I'm finding those areas to really exploit that vulnerability in a positive way. Again, yes, resilience can be talked about in this sense that it is a shield, it is armor, and you're building up layers and layers to be tougher, if you will. But when adversity hits, just realize, to me it's not a bouncing back either, though, because I can't do anything to repair that once it's been dented. It's never going to be the same way as it was when it was brand new. To me, the bigger piece is well, how do we bounce forward now? I can't change anything about who I am today, and I'll never get back to the same medically, biologically same person Scott was before brain surgery. There's some permanent damage that has been done and some things that I still deal with today. It's all about okay, how do I operate now with what I have? How do I do what I can with what I've got? That, to me, is really where resilience should be invested, and really learned is how do I bounce forward from this with what I got, and how do I use those tools now? It might be in a different way, but still use them to my advantage to do some really great things. Again, even in the protocol of military or even within private industry whether it's in a board meeting or a meeting with C-suite, whatever there is always time to pull somebody aside and either mentor up, pull your boss aside and say are you doing okay, can I get you a cup of coffee sometime? I mean, what's the harm in even asking that question? You do need to be prepared, though, because you never know what might come out of that person's mouth. If you truly, genuinely believe that you want to be there for someone, then just be prepared for what might come out, because you may need to ask for some reinforcement. If it's beyond your professional capacity, you may need to bring in some experts. I say that out of respect for some of the things that I've heard some of my airmen say to me.

Cheryl Cross: 1:20:29

If you're working in the corporate space. I would imagine that if I were a CEO of a company, I would think you're so super cool. I would want to hear every story, every military story, because as a civilian, it's just like your life is just so sexy and so cool. This is the stuff we see on TV and the movies. How do you become relational to these folks so they don't think of you as I mean? You're a bit of a superstar, but you're really down to earth, Scott, I appreciate that.

Aaron Ffrench: 1:20:57

Thank you.

Cheryl Cross: 1:20:59

Get the conversation away from the military. I mean, this is who you were for 20-some odd years, but how do you get it to be focused more on them?

J. Scot Heathman: 1:21:08

Yeah, and I've experienced this a couple times I start asking them questions. I think a really good coach asks really good questions. Really great leaders ask really great questions. You can tell those great leaders that have really high active listening skills. Because they're so busy asking questions and listening, I quickly go into question asking mode. I do also try to find ways. You know this just as good as anybody else who's dealt with military members in transition. I'll say we retirees and veterans, we have a hard time translating our current military skills into what's relatable to private industry, right into the civilian world. I think we overstate that though sometimes, and I think we overstate it to the fact that we too much so that we end up believing in that there are so many skills that we bring to the civilian sector. It's just, it's ridiculous. There is an art, though, to translating those, and you talk about that in your book. There is an art form to that. What I have tried and what I've spent a lot of time before I even left the military, is thinking about how would I translate some of these things that were in my world, in the United States Air Force, into, maybe, what a CEO would be having a not necessarily a problem, but maybe a blind spot to, or maybe a pain point. I posted an article the other day. I just got done teaching a three day course to about 30 Air Force auditors. Okay, now raise your hand if you like auditors. If you've ever had a positive experience with an auditor, not too many hands go up, I'm sure for my audience here. But I started off the post with you should hug an auditor, and I have no doubt that everybody's like what in the world are you saying, scott? That's the last thing I would do to the last audit I received and the people that came out. But I tell you what again put a human lens on this? These are human beings who love their job. They think their job is extremely important to the Department of Defense. Again, these were Air Force auditors, so I'll speak in the defense here. They want nothing more than to see these organizations succeed. But when they show up at the organization's front door, the unit's front door, they are not greeted with a smile, it is eye rolls. And what are you doing here? What did I do wrong? All right, so I like to talk to leaders about let's flip the script on this. Okay, I had auditors too, in the military, I'm sure you have quality assurance inspections, audits. You have these same things that I went through right? Yes, they're painful at times, but wouldn't it be great if we embraced the red and actually exposed what we're not doing right, either prior to the audit Some of these audits have like a pre-interview or just be right up front hey, our operations are really humming great, we have a great safety record. But I tell you what, on our logistics side, we need to brush up on our paperwork here. There's some areas that I'm just beginning to understand that we're not doing a good job. So do you mind starting there first, audit that area and see what you find. Can you imagine anybody saying that? Well, I tell you, when I started saying those things, the auditors were like is he okay? They were confused and they said yes, sir, yeah, we'll go look at that. And next thing you know. I got more information to make my organization better than I could have ever asked for. And at the end of some of these engagements or these audits, I went through a unit effectiveness inspection, which is done every three years, and they'd look at the entire base I don't know every skeleton in every closet. After three years I wasn't even command. Yeah, I wasn't even command for three years. But you don't know what you don't know. So why don't you just say that? But if you do have some areas that you're concerned about, why wouldn't you want to make them better? I decided to take embarrassment off the table, take judgment off the table, take some of these things that somehow tend to define senior leaders, like I got to be crystal clean or I might get fired. Well, that may be the case sometimes. Again, reality, that may happen. But you know what? If I expose an area that I'd like to get some help in and we get better, can you imagine the promotion at the end of that versus something that you just want to hide or pencil whip? You know, get through. So that's where I try to find areas that are very common in the civilian world and say, look, I've been through these same things here. And oh, by the way, I found a better way to get through it by changing a little bit of my mindset, my relational engagements with some of these organizations, and then now here's the results that you could potentially see. Let's look at through that lens now. That seems to kind of break down some barriers when I come with a little bit of shock and awe at the beginning, to use another military term. So I think that gets after to what a senior leader is concerned about within their organization, because at the end of the day, my stories are going to be great and all my flying stories, yeah, that's not going to help though their company. And I am more focused on what can I do to help your company? You know, either erase that pain point or find ways to maneuver through it, and at the end of the day, it's about a bigger bottom line, right? So we got to find ways to get to that too. So I tend to kind of just ask a lot more questions, flip the script and then, you know, become an investigator if you will and try to see things through different lenses.

Cheryl Cross: 1:27:41

An auditor. You become an auditor. Yeah, because that's what they do.

J. Scot Heathman: 1:27:44

Yeah, you got a hunt. You got a hunt, yeah. I mean, executive coaches are pretty similar to auditors. I think it's just the title that we give them that makes it sound more comforting, if you will. So.

Cheryl Cross: 1:27:58

Yeah, I don't ever go through life talking about my auditor. I talk about my mentors, my champions, my advocates, not my auditor. Yeah, if you say something embrace the red. Embrace the red. Is this going to be the title of your book? I'm curious, just curious.

J. Scot Heathman: 1:28:15

Oh, you know it might be a book down the road, but no, the current title of my book right now is called Command with Courage and again it's going to cover a little bit of my story about finding out, you know, this big medical event, this brain tumor. If you will actually call a tumor Tobi, I mean, why not give it a name? You know, let's just have a little bit of humor with it. So, and I don't like Tobi, and for those folks asking no offense against anybody named Tobi, but anybody that is wondering why Tobi, I named it after Tobi from the show the Office, and Michael Scott has a really I hate, hate relationship with Tobi. He wants him gone. Well, I want Tobi gone too, but that image in my mind, thinking about it, just gave me enough levity to get through some days. So that's why I gave it a name. It is called Command with Courage because of what I learned through this horrific event. I think I found ways to tap into my leadership in far better ways than I was previously, and I was leveraging more of things like emotional intelligence, enhancing my level of self-awareness, understanding how to better regulate what's going on around me. Because, after you know, for those that have gone through something like this or have seen somebody go through this. Boy, your energy is sapped in a heartbeat. I mean even coming back to work after four months. You know I'm coming back in June of 2020, back into being the base commander. I could only sit in front of a computer for maybe 45 minutes. It was. I was too overloaded, it was just attacking my brain. I was exhausted, and so I would work a little bit from home. I come in for some meetings. I'd maybe do some, you know, if we had some base tours or I was going to visit a unit. I just had to rethink and retool everything, and so I had to rethink about how energy affected me so much. And then I had to think about well, what are these energy zappers? Being moody, you know. Not being self-aware, you know, wishing I was back to my old self. None of that stuff served me anymore. What was serving me was looking forward, managing with what I've got, asking myself really good questions, asking for feedback, having accountability, partners in my life, people saying, sir, you look exhausted, it's time to go home, don't sit in front of that computer anymore. And they were right. There is nothing more I was going to gain by another hour reading email. Honestly, that email will be there tomorrow and most of the time, you know, half of it probably didn't even need to read. I was on a CC line when I just didn't even need to be, so I got really good at managing email and things like that With command, with courage. What I want to convey to the readers is yes, an event happened, adversity happened. Everybody deals with that. But what's a better blueprint to managing through that, so that you will be a little bit better equipped the next time adversity hits, to move through it. Maybe a little bit faster, maybe not wasting so much energy, you know, a little bit more efficient, being able to bounce forward a little bit better? Just some things to think about. And it has a lot to do with your mindset and how you approach just life in general. You know, because if you're, you know, crying over spilled milk all the time, boy, that's not good healing for anybody dealing with any sort of mental trauma or physical ailments. It's just wasting energy. There's a better way to go about this so that you're you don't just crash there when the next piece of adversity hits you. You know he hits your life. So that's what I'm hoping to do and educate people on what I've learned.

Cheryl Cross: 1:32:39

I want to share that Scott has only been out as of this recording, which we're going to keep this timeless, so we're not going to say the year, but it's been about a year and four months, five months, so you've done a lot in a year and a half and you've created a business that you're working in, you're writing a book, you're moving forward rapidly and I I knew a little bit about your story, but I I don't even know that I'm going to edit any of the things that you set out, because usually these segments are only 15, 20 minutes, but we've got 38 minutes and I kind of want you to keep talking 2436 thank you. We're going to have you back and we're going to roll into the next segment after a brief break. We're going to have somebody who's been out of the military a little longer than Scott has and they've been out of the military at least five years navigating the civilian workforce. This is the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour. I am your host, cheryl Cross, as we round up the last part of our show, we have not one, but two guests in the room today. I have Jacob Musso and baby Jacob Musso, who you can hear in the background. He's joining us today. He's learning to vocalize. He's just a few weeks old. Hi, jacob, thanks so much for joining us today. How are you doing?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:35:52

I'm doing very well, cheryl, how are you?

Cheryl Cross: 1:35:54

Good, I appreciate you babysitting during this segment. You know we are real life here at Exchange and the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour. We're talking about all things career transition, and I know that you are a professional transition specialist. But you also have a project that I am so excited about and that is your Wounded Woodworkers Group. Now I want to know when you started thinking about this, how you developed it, and really is this a passion project that sort of keeps you going? I don't want to tee it up too much for you, because I want you to tell us the story about it.

Jacob Mousseau: 1:36:31

Yeah, absolutely so. When I transitioned out of the military I came rather unexpected. I just ran listed overseas for stabilization so I could stay here at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, and when I got back my entire brigade got disbanded. So when that happened it displaced me. I ended up having to get out of the military. I was fortunate, Got to go into the reserves for a couple of years so just to continue to serve. But that wasn't my thing. I definitely brought from a high intensity to the reserves. If anyone's done that, they understand it's just a much slower pace. So when I did get out I ended up getting a severance check for the military which was unique. Didn't know the military service did that, so it was pretty cool. I also got my VA disability rating pretty much at the same time. So I had pretty much the most money I've ever had in my life and it was just my wife in that time. So I spent it on a workshop, got some power tools. I really found woodworking therapeutic and I wanted others to enjoy that as well. So we started out as a club. We had woodworkers was our name, just bunch of veterans, mostly disabled veterans, and we'd build furniture. So we did that for a couple of years it's a hobby until somebody got injured and didn't really think about the whole liability stuff because I wasn't like a company or anything like this Guys hanging out in a shop. But obviously that could have went very south. So luckily nothing happens, but it could have gotten really bad financially. So shifted gears, stopped inviting people over, built stuff for power and I still wanted to give back. So I kind of shifted the idea of like woodworkers from club to business and started building things and then with the proceeds I'd donate them to nonprofits that could do the work and help other warriors out where it could no longer do that.

Cheryl Cross: 1:38:48

So wounded woodworkers went from a group to an individual, and how long ago was that? And what are you focusing on?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:38:56

Yeah, so that was let's see about 2018 kind of thing is, when it was just solely me building stuff. I didn't actually become a business or do the whole business thing. Until this year, actually, I just I had been making enough money to file taxes or do any of that stuff and I didn't really think about the insurance for, like the products I was making. It didn't really see dangerous to sell the people, so never really pursued that till this year. I went through what? Through entrepreneurial bootcamp, which is actually for veterans and military spouses.

Cheryl Cross: 1:39:34

Which one was it? What was the name of it?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:39:37

Yeah, so it was through the Rosie Network and it's called service to CEO and it's a 12-week program. They teach you. It's fast-paced class but they teach you pretty much everything you need to know to become a business and the cool part about it is they continue to support you upon graduation. So you know opportunities come up for, you know podcasts or published magazines, get mentors to work with, so it's very nice that the aftercare of it once you complete it, so it's not just a class and you know good luck, see you later. There's a lot of extra resources that continue to help you out.

Cheryl Cross: 1:40:19

And that was the Rosie Network. Rosie Clear which? Who's Rosie?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:40:24

I don't know how to explain it, but you know, like the woman wore, rosie the Riveter. Rosie the Riveter.

Cheryl Cross: 1:40:31

I don't know if I can get my arm in. I don't have one. I haven't lifted in a while. Yeah, rosie, oh yes, okay, rosie, the Riveter Got it All right, so it's open to everyone that has served. Okay, that makes sense. Now a little bit more about your transition story. You said it was a bit rocky. How? Might your experience, help others. I know also this has motivated you to become a transition specialist, and that's why I know who you are. But tell us a little bit about how you navigated that several years ago.

Jacob Mousseau: 1:41:01

Sure, when I got out I thought it would be pretty easy. I had a career in HR military that's what I was working on my degree boards, I went to the O2O program and I was pursuing my PhD HR, so my professional certification, hr. So I had all this lined up and thought how do you think it would be easy to get a job in HR? It really wasn't. The skill set and the terminology of things that I didn't service didn't translate well to the command sector. I mean, a lot of things are similar in nature, but how I spoke and how they spoke is really different. So I didn't get work enough and I ended up just taking any job just to pay the bills, which I encourage people to do too, because some people just hang on and wait, wait, wait, wait that perfect opportunity and they get so far behind financially and they get discouraged that nothing happens. I mean, sometimes you just got to take that job, even if it's not your dream job. And you know I did that for a couple of years. I finally got a shot in HR. I took it and then I did about six years in manufacturing as a food research manager. So it was pretty cool.

Cheryl Cross: 1:42:23

All right, don. We're listening to Jacob Musso, and the sound you hear in the background is Baby Jacob, who is being babysat by dad, so we're pleased to have both Jacobs in the room today. Yes, and now.

Jacob Mousseau: 1:42:34

I have a baby in my hands, but I did six years in human resources in the manufacturing world automotive and food manufacturing so got a good idea of what the civilian sector was looking for and you know when it came to hiring. So I spent a lot of time looking at resume's own screens, interviewing a lot of veterans and kind of seeing what they were doing wrong in the eyes of hiring managers. And then when I was able to get all this feedback, of course I wanted to go that shared of everyone that I interviewed. Of course most recruiters and HR professionals can't do that, so I just kind of kept gathering it, building all this experience, then finding I've found a way to get back where an opportunity to recruit came up. Got to work with veterans and military spouses specifically not just anybody, and a lot of times it's working with warriors who are transitioning from service. So I have a lot of reliability to that with my own story, kind of like how it went, how those you know things that I would definitely do different and now that I've got a lot of skills and civilian sector especially in your resources, I can share that and it really helps out knowing you know some of those things that people are looking for what the resume should look like and then how to prepare, especially when it comes to networking. Because the whole job search process has changed dramatically from even from what I was in HR till now mostly COVID. But you can't just go online, apply for a job and get an interview or walk in somewhere. Let it happen. It just doesn't work that way anymore. You get you have to know people. So it's nice to kind of be that third party that helps you know, build those relationships.

Cheryl Cross: 1:44:39

Right on. You know so many people I talked to who were HR in the military don't want to do HR in the civilian world. Did you encounter that yourself, or was it kind of like I've done it, I want to build on it, I want to do something else, and then you sort of default and like, okay, this is something I know I can do and there's such a need. What was that journey like?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:45:03

for you? Yeah, for me, the military is my first career. I joined about 17, shipped off 18, deployed, had my birthday overseas, turn 19. So I mean it all went pretty quickly for me. That's all I really knew military and human resources. So I was already pursuing my degree. I found out about the free certifications you get through O2O, so I tried just to stick with that path, which, again, a lot of veterans do this and it's not always the right path. So you know, if you're not absolutely passionate about or in love to do military, you're not going to love the civilian world either. So spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it is that you do.

Cheryl Cross: 1:45:56

You work with people who are transitioning out and you and I, we have the same heartbeat about planning, planning in advance. My book, civilian mission, is a three year guide to wrap your mind around, on your last PCS, what you should be doing at the end of that PCS. And three years seems like an incredible amount of time for most people. What do you? What do you recommend? Is it a year? Is it two years? Is it more? If you can, what do you tell people?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:46:25

Yeah, I mean absolutely as early as possible. I mean I don't think it's ever too early to start the networking process or building a leafing profile. Most people don't do that until they're six months out. They are going through tap classes or something. So I feel like if you can do it early, definitely do it as early as possible because you definitely need that time. So most of the people I work with are veterans who are already out, military spouses, and then I work with transitioning orders. You're getting medically separated, so with with them it could be anywhere between like three and nine months, so I don't usually get them further out. I do go on to Fort Campbell and help instruct the Solder for Life tap classes here and there. So I do interact with some that are one or two years out, but it's not very often. So I definitely would encourage it as early as possible.

Cheryl Cross: 1:47:29

So when someone has a three to nine month timeline and they're being medically separated, does that put extra heat on them?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:47:37

Absolutely, because they don't. They don't have an exact date, they don't know when they're going to be separated, until it's like right there, so that lots of time frame. So sometimes the medical separations could just take a couple months and sometimes it could take longer, but the warrior doesn't know which doesn't allow them to do a lot of things like skill, bridge and some of these other programs that you have to have a designated time or at least know that. It really handicaps them in more ways than the medical. No pun, I guess, intended, but it hurts them with their transition because they don't know which they can apply for jobs, because they can't interview. I mean, there's a lot of things that there's just unknown.

Cheryl Cross: 1:48:27

In my first episode I interviewed Angie Smith. She was overseas med boarded and had to find an employer, which she did. That was flexible because her timeline changed constantly, so her whole segment was talking about flexibility. What are some of the texts, what are some of the tools and tips that you have to help people that are in that sort of you know, I don't want to say that just that really stressful situation where there the unknown is greater than the known.

Jacob Mousseau: 1:49:00

You know, I feel like they just need to really take it step by step, slow down, not try to stress themselves out. Work on one thing at a time. So you know whether that's building like detailed plan of what they're trying to do, maybe work on maybe networking with one new person per day. Spend one day on the resume one day job searching. Just break it up. I feel like so many people just build a resume and then they do a scroll on umdi and LinkedIn every single day for hours, like something new is just going to magically appear and it has it. So you have to break it up into small chunks and work on something different every single day so you're not just doing the same thing, burning yourself out.

Cheryl Cross: 1:49:57

It can be overwhelming. What do you coach people to do conversation wise? When they're talking to those employers let's say their timeline is really unknown because of their situation how do you coach them to talk to companies and have that sort of honest, transparent conversation, especially with companies that don't understand how this process can impact them?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:50:22

That's a good question. Usually I don't coach them on that, I try to interject, like them Most of the time. I'll usually have a contact in a lot of these organizations that I'm thinking with that help work with wound warriors or their families, and you know I'll have those conversations about how to educate employers and if it's something I don't have a you know connection with, then I'll speak with you know, the warrior I'm working with, the spouse I'm working with and ask if it's okay if I connect with them and just kind of walk them through what it's like to hire a warrior or what it's like to get medically separated, to give them a better understanding through a third party where it's not just that another annoying job I've hit that's making up excuses. No, somebody that can you know speak to that. But always transparency is the best. So if all else fails I can't do that and they're on their own talking to the employer. Just be 100% transparent. You know this is kind of what we're looking at. If it's not a good fit, it's not a good fit, but you made a good impression with them, you're upfront and honest and maybe when that time does come, they'll have an opportunity or they'll at least know somebody that has an opportunity and they can make a connection for you. So I feel like the doors will open eventually. You just got to continue building relationships, being authentic, being honest, and then, when the time comes, you're going to have a lot of people that you know will be there to help you. But you got to kind of create those people first.

Cheryl Cross: 1:52:04

We're listening to Jacob Musso and baby Jacob Musso, who he got to pick up because he was just making so many fun noises. He's a newborn, so dad is is interviewing for a podcast and babysitting. That is the modern man. You talked a little bit about your company, Wounded Woodworkers, and the causes that are close to your heart. They were Boulder Crest, who works with PTSD and TBI, and Operation Heal Our Patriots. You want to talk about them a little bit.

Jacob Mousseau: 1:52:34

So that's through Samaritan Purse. So it's a faith based program. But they work on helping the warrior and their spouse, you know, kind of rebuild their relationship, rekindle their relationship. And that's a really cool program too, because you'll go through it to meet along with, you know, military chaplains and other couples and you'll work on, you know, just having conversations with your spouse and, you know, building that relationship. But it doesn't end there. So they'll have little retreats here and there throughout the year where you go meet up with them again and then every year we'll have like this big annual reunion. So it's not just like a one and done thing. That's something I enjoy about some of these programs too. It's a lifelong program where some things out there are just a once in a chance, like a one chance thing, where it's just, hey, try this out and that's it. But the programs that are out there that mean a lot to me are the ones that help follow the warrior through their journey, like for the whole life. So that's kind of like why I've selected some of these organizations.

Cheryl Cross: 1:53:55

Tell me more about your business. I want to know what excites you about it. What's your passion for woodworking?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:54:01

Yeah, yeah, so well, I think the best part about mine is this and what I do, specifically, because it's very different for most. I don't. I don't build for an attorney more, I'm not, you know, making wood items by hand and now have a laser and I do portraits. So I really I take people's memories, whether they're, you know, happy memories, like a newborn or a lost head, and I turn these memories into tangible items so they can keep you forever. So and it's funny, too excited Not funny, but coincidental that I just had a customer come before hopping on here and I made some of his dog that just passed away and they're really appreciative of it and it's not like sad and you know they're not not sad, but they're really grateful, they really find the work beautiful. So, like I really enjoy that part. No, I try to hand deliver if I can. You know, if I can't, I have customers send me a picture or a video of where we're receiving it, because I really like that. I'd also like to know the story behind photos too. So before I even engrave, I always contact every customer myself and I find out like, hey, what's the meaning of this photo, what's it going to be for? So that's what I guess a little bit different for me, just because I like to be a part of that. And then when I deliver it to them, you know I understand why that photo, why it's important, and then I can recreate it in a great way that represents that memory.

Cheryl Cross: 1:55:49

This has a lot of meaning to you and it's very clear. So thank you so much for sharing your transition story and a bit of your passion and introducing us to your son, Jacob Jr. Congratulations on having your second child. They are all blessings. My name is Cheryl Cross and I'd like to say thanks to Jacob Musso, who is available to be contacted through LinkedIn. That's how I find all of my guests. Why don't you tell people how to spell your, your name? Because it doesn't spell like it sounds different for those of people who are listening just by earbuds.

Jacob Mousseau: 1:56:25

Absolutely so, jacob, as in biblical J-A-C-O-B, but the last name it's M-O-U-S-S-E-A-U, so echo alpha uniform at the end there and you can be reached through LinkedIn.

Cheryl Cross: 1:56:42

And are you looking to sponsor or not sponsor? But are you looking to mentor any veteran to bees or people who are going through transition?

Jacob Mousseau: 1:56:51

Yeah, and I can speak to that real quick. So I am a mentor through ACP and Vederati. So you can find me in both those places to work with ACP, not so much just because I usually I work with one person per year, but Vederati, you know, you can definitely kind of be there and obviously you can just reach out to my LinkedIn if you have questions. You can sit at call and you know conversation that's too easy, Right, exactly.

Cheryl Cross: 1:57:23

Well, thank you, Jacob. It's been now he's falling asleep. The last 30, 26 minutes he's been making those wonderful noises and I just want to say thank you for your patience. You're a great dad and very loving. And when he said can I pick him up, I'm like, yes, you may, because he's not part of the conversation. So if you're wondering what those wonderful noises were in the background, that was Jacob Jr Alrighty. Thanks so much, jacob. I'm going to close up the show. My name is Cheryl Cross. This is the Military to Civilian Career Transition Power Hour. We just spoke to five plus year veteran Jacob Musso, who can be reached on LinkedIn. We'll see you soon after this break. Hey, thanks so much for being with us through this whole episode. We just wrapped up episode nine and I'd like to thank my very special guests are in the soup feature Aaron French, our one year vet, scott Heathman, our expert, virginia Franco, and our five plus year vet, jacob Musso. All the people on this podcast are very important. They each have very unique transition stories and I'm so grateful for you. This morning I checked the stats and not only are we growing by leaps and bounds on YouTube, but our podcast downloads are happening all across the world. Special thanks going out to our US military serving in the UK, in Germany, in where was the other place? Romania, my friends in Romania. We also have folks throughout the US in Guam, in Puerto Rico, of course, here in Hawaii, number one and throughout the US mainland. Thank you so much for listening and thank you for liking and subscribing wherever you can. If you're listening to this on a podcast, just click subscribe or follow. The more you do that, the more it gets out to people like you who are looking for this information. My name is Cheryl Cross and I'm so pleased and honored that you've joined us for this, and I'm going to end this show just like I do every show, just to remind you. If you are transitioning from the military, planning a civilian career, you're doing the right thing by listening to these stories. But I also want you to remember this you are brave, you are strong, you are skilled and you are trained, and all four of those things are super important to the civilian workforce. Don't give up hope. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you on the next episode. Bye for now. Audio and video post production is done by OceanTreeCreativecom.